The following is from an online conversation that I had with an Atheist on Youtube.com. These are the comments that were under this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY6Dn0_hBOY
MartyJSwizzle = Christian
viridismonasteriense = Atheist
(Most of the responses on this discussion from viridismonasteriense are sourced from my replies to CodaCola, which was another Atheist that I was discussing things with at the time)
I am going to list his post, then afterward, my reply:
I. The Flood
@MartyJSwizzle "Did you realize that God doesn't make mistakes."
Than why did God flood the Earth? Genesis 6:6 "The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth" So he made humans knowing beforehand they would eat from the tree he placed there and he knew beforehand that he would have to drown the lot of them anyway and start over.
If it's not God correcting his mistake than it's God planning the vicious murder of billions of lifeforms for creating them to break rules he made. - viridismonasteriense
@viridismonasteriense - When Gen 6:6 says that God “regretted” making man; it doesn’t mean that God changed His mind or realized He made a mistake. It means that God was heart-broken and sad that man had gone down this path of corruption. Gen 6:9 says that Noah was the ONLY blameless (righteous) person on earth. Gen 6:11 says that the earth was “filled” with violence and all the earth had become “corrupt.” Gen 6:12 says that all were corrupt on the earth. Gen 6:13 says that all were corrupt. Mankind had lost his direction. - MartyJSwizzle
@viridismonasteriense - The exact reason that God flooded the earth is listed in Gen 6:5 - "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
That means, EVERYONE was CONTINUALLY evil, all the time, day and night; probably participating in senseless murders, multiple rapes, sex group orgies, multiple robberies, many wars, useless killings, animals were probably extremely carnivorous, etc. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle "The exact reason that God flooded the earth is listed in Gen 6:5 "
Did God not know in advance that mankind would descend down this path? Then he is not 'omniscient'. Could he not turn them away from that path without the need for genocide and slaughter? Then he is not 'omnipotent'. Did he prefer to kill them than to save them? Then he is not 'omnibenevolent'.
God made human nature and then punished humans for following their nature. Are curiosity and naivity a sin? - viridismonasteriense
@viridismonasteriense - Are you a mistake? No, God did not make a mistake in creating man. Adam (man) made the mistake of disobeying God. It's not that God was correcting his mistake, it's God correcting man's mistake. God was not murdering man, he was saving man from themselves. They were going to destroy themselves, if God had not stepped in to save them! In order to save man, He had to rid the evil from the face of the earth.
What "rules" are you referring too? - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle "God was not murdering man, he was saving man from themselves. They were going to destroy themselves, if God had not stepped in to save them! In order to save man, He had to rid the evil from the face of the earth."
Ever heard of GENOCIDE? You've just described it's very definition. A man called Adolf Hitler wanted to rid evil of the face of the Earth and he was systematically eradicating it with the best technology of his time, yet you call *him* a monster and God great. - viridismonasteriense
@viridismonasteriense - Yes, I have heard of the word “genocide” and it has absolutely nothing to do with the Genesis Flood and everything to do with the Jews, specifically the nation of Israel. The word "genocide" did even exist before 1944. You’re taking the situation out of context. In this particular Genesis story, there is no “genocide” but instead it is best referred to as “omnicide,” for the lack of a better definition. However, since God is not bound to man’s definitions & 8 humans survived, it is God’s judgment, and not “omnicide.” - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle - Animals were probably carnivorous? You're making a lot of assumptions. What about all the human babies in the city? What about all the animal babies? Were they evil? And don't tell me there weren't any. If you're going to assume all those animals were carnivorous, including the giraffe, I'm going to assume they had babies, puppies, kittens. Who all died. God killed them all. What an awesome God, not. - viridismonasteriense
@viridismonasteriense - As far as animals are concerned, the bible clearly explains that all animals were herbivores at the beginning of creation and after sin & death came into the world some began to hunt and scavenge one another (obviously, giraffes stayed herbivores). No, the babies weren’t evil but these are animals without souls & not made in the image of God; thus replaceable. It’s unfortunate, but the Flood was God’s way of judgment against all humanity, including everything on the earth. Remember, God saved all the kinds of animals aboard Noah’s ark so they would survive as well. - MartyJSwizzle
II. Original Sin
@MartyJSwizzle "Adam (man) made the mistake of disobeying God."
So all of mankind is punished because they ate some fruit, whilst Cain murdered his own brother and got away with a tribe of his own. That should tell you where God's priorities lie. Obedience over humanism. As long as you worship God you can get away with everything. Especially since all of your sins have been taken by Christ.
Original sin is a horrific concept worthy of such a malevolent entity that is Yahwe of the OT.- viridismonasteriense
@viridismonasteriense- No, mankind was not punished because Adam ate a fruit. When Adam disobeyed God, sin came into the world (the whole universe and everything we can know and see). Sin and death is the natural law that is the result of disobedience against perfect righteousness. Cain murdered Able as a result of sin in the world caused by jealousy and pride. God’s priorities are man & He proved it by saving Noah; righteousness over wickedness. - MartyJSwizzle
III. Judgment
@MartyJSwizzle - Useless, senseless murders? Like the deaths of children, women and cattle? Wars? Like the wars God ordered and spearheaded? Robberies? Like the robberies God ordered his chosen tribe to do? Like the colt Jesus stole from the city? Like the gold stolen from the slaughtered cities that was kept for God and God alone? Rape? Like the non-consensual impregnation of the virgin Mary? And sex? Why is sex, an act of love, evil when all participants want it? - viridismonasteriense
@viridismonasteriense - You cannot compare God’s judgment against all the earth and against certain tribes or nations with children, cattle and women; there are reasons and context that makes the differences and each situation needs to be discerned and reasoned with on an individual basis. God headed up wars against other nations because they defied God’s people, the Israelites. Again, for certain reasons based upon individual circumstances. - MartyJSwizzle
@viridismonasteriense - Jesus never stole a colt from anyone. “The case of Jesus telling His disciples to go locate the donkey and colt does not prove thievery, any more than Jesus’ disciples inquiring about and occupying an “upper room” makes them trespassers (cf. Mark 14:13-15). When sending His two disciples to get the requested animals, Jesus told them exactly where to go and what to say, as if He already knew the circumstances under which the donkey and colt were available. Jesus may very well have prearranged for the use of the donkeys.” ~ http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/518 - MartyJSwizzle
@viridismonasteriense - Mary was not raped against her will. In Luke 1:38, Mary gives permission for the Holy Spirit to impregnate her. Besides, rape is not necessarily a physical act; rape can also be a mental act as well. Sex, according to God’s view, is supposed to be between one man and one woman and it is a union between the two who are already one by marriage. Casual, unmarried sex between multiple partners of same sex or not, is a sin and as in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, is considered wickedness. - MartyJSwizzle
IV. Blaming God
@MartyJSwizzle God painted the picture. So don't blame the painting, blame the painter.
Gen 6:5 does not change the situation. Gen 6:6 straight after that tells of God regretting having created all humans on the earth, realizing he shouldn't have. - viridismonasteriense
@viridismonasteriense - God did not paint the picture. God created the frame, raw paint, canvas and brush out of nothing, brought in into existence by His own power and gave it all to mankind. Mankind painted the picture that was offensive to God. God destroyed the painting and saved some paint so that man could start a new painting. Gen 6:5 changes everything because God is God and His judgment is right. Does not the creator of all things have the right to judge His own creation? - MartyJSwizzle
V. Omniprescence
@MartyJSwizzle - Was God not present, did God not see Adam and Eve eat from the fruit of all knowledge? Then he is not omnipresent. Why call him God?
As this video indicates, God purposely tempted his own children by planting the tree and then letting the snake persuade Eve to eat the fruit. He made human nature. He kinew the future. It's like a parent telling or letting a pedophile trick their children and the children are then punished for being created void of distrust. - viridismonasteriense
@viridismonasteriense - Yes, God is omnipresent. Yes, He saw everything that was going on in the Garden of Eden. However, God is not going to step in every time we make a stupid mistake. He will help to repair the mistake (by sending Christ) and come down Himself and do it for us (by God becoming Christ the man). God wants us to learn from our mistakes and have freewill to make choices. If we screw up, He will help us to overcome. If we do something dumb, He will help us through it. - MartyJSwizzle
@viridismonasteriense - God is a gentleman and never forces anyone to do anything that they do not want to do. If you are God’s enemy, then beware. God is in charge, He owns the world and universe in it, He has free reign on what He wants to do. You should be thankful that He hasn’t judged you yet. As a lesson in respect for God, judgment was the OT solution. However, because of Christ, judgment is now not until the end of all things and only mercy, unconditional love and forgiveness remains. God is God and you are not, so get that through your arrogant, hard shell of ignorance. - MartyJSwizzle
@viridismonasteriense - God made human nature and then punished humans for following their nature. Are curiosity and naivity a sin? No, God made man in His image. Man had freedom, power, choices and individuality. Man decided to go his own way and think for himself as if he knew better than God (like many atheists that I know). Thus, Adam and Eve decided for themselves and were fooled into believing a lie that God is stupid and a liar (like many atheists I know). Thus, mankind put on the nature of sin and death that separated them from God (Gen 2:17). - MartyJSwizzle
VI. Conclusion
@viridismonasteriense - Conclusion, I bring good news! Jesus (Yeshua), the Christ has removed the curse and shame of sin and given the power to overcome the world to His people by one simple method. That is by having faith (belief) in who Christ is and that He died on the cross, was buried for 3 days and rose again to life on the 3rd day. If you simply believe that Jesus is who He claimed to be, then you will be saved from God’s future eternal judgment of all of humanity from the beginning to the end of time. Take it or leave it; it’s your choice. - MartyJSwizzle
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