Mark 12:41-44 “Jesus sat down near the collection box in the Temple and watched as the crowds dropped in their money. Many rich people put in large amounts. Then a poor widow came and dropped in two small coins. Jesus called his disciples to him and said, “I tell you the truth, this poor widow has given more than all the others who are making contributions. For they gave a tiny part of their surplus, but she, poor as she is, has given everything she had to live on (NLT).”
First of all, let’s get some context. At the time of this event, it was before the cross, under the Law, in the shadow of the Temple of Levitical preisthood and in Israel and after the preaching of John the Baptist, the New Coevenant was in full force. The collection box was used specifically for the Temple and its upkeep. It was not used to pay the priests; they had no monetary income or any inheritance, yet they were living by faith and being supported by God. The money that was dropped into the collection box was a donation, not a command or an act of obedience or worship, it was a freewill offering to help pay for the expenses of the Temple.
Why would Jesus tell his disciples that the poor widow had given more than all the others who were rich? I believe it’s because Jesus was showing us that the amount of money we freely give isn’t as important as the motive behind it. This flies in the face of those tithing ten percent on-going income prosperity preachers. Jesus told us this story to show and prove to us that a set amount, such as ten percent, is not fair to everyone.
This is why the ten percent mandatory “tithe” of the on-going income that is falsely taught in today’s churches is not fair to everyone. If we were to take ten percent of a family man’s paycheck who made $10,000 a year and made it a “mandatory” tithe, that man would struggle for every dime to make ends meet. He needs to provide food on the table every day for his children, his wife and himself. He needs to pay any bills for his necessities such as electricity and fresh water and trash. He needs to provide shelter and clothing for everyone as well; plus, transportation to school, work and the grocery. Ten percent of this man’s paycheck is a lot and he needs to budget every single penny to squeak by.
On the other hand, there’s another man who makes $100,000 a year. If we were to take ten percent of this family man’s paycheck who made $100,000 a year and made it a “mandatory” tithe, it would be pocket change for him; a drop in the bucket, so to speak. After paying all this man’s bills, he has plenty left over. Why? It’s because he has plenty of surplus left over from his necessities and giving ten percent doesn’t really affect him at all. He still has plenty of money to go golfing with his buddies, pump super unleaded in his gas guzzling Hummer and to eat that night at the finest restaurant in town, every day!
Does this seem fair to you?
Even though the widow giving all that she owned was considered “more” than all the rich people’s money, she freely gave because she was told she had to by the Pharisees. As we all know, the Pharisees are liars and cannot be trusted. Jesus even called them children of the devil.
John 8:44 – “For you [Pharisees] are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies (NLT).”
Now, look just before this in Mark 12:38-40 where it says, “Beware of these teachers of religious law! For they like to parade around in flowing robes and receive respectful greetings as they walk in the marketplaces. And how they love the seats of honor in the synagogues and the head table at banquets. Yet they shamelessly cheat widows out of their property and then pretend to be pious by making long prayers in public. Because of this, they will be more severely punished (NLT).”
Did you read that? Look, Jesus said that the Pharisees, who were experts and teachers of the Law “shamelessly cheat widows out of their property.” Why did do you think Jesus said that? I believe that Jesus was preparing His Word for a time when preachers and teachers of our day will be exposed. God already had a plan in place and a special promise for widows (Psalm 68:5).
These prosperity preachers of today teach a mandatory ten percent on-going income “tithe” in order to “shamelessly cheat widows out of their property.” However, these hucksters today have more arrogance than those in Jesus’ day. They now preach that even the poor, whether you are a widow or not, must pay their ten percent or else they will be cursed, will be considered living in sin, shunned by their church or lose their church membership.
Not even in the Law of Moses where the poor required to tithe. The poor were actually given a portion of the tithe under the Law. Throughout the bible, there is a recurring theme of God taking care of the poor and needy.
The ten percent tithe teaching goes against every character trait of a loving and merciful God. These preachers who preach this ten percent “tithe” are either decieved or being decieving. If they are teaching this tithe out of ignorance or tradition, I pray that some day they would all have a true desire to seek God's truth through revelation of the Holy Spirit. Of course, people can repent and start teaching the right things, but after the luxurious life of an almost effortless continual income from the rich, the poor and the widows, I can assume that it will be difficult to let go of all that earthly treasure that had been storing up for so long.
2 Corinthians 2:17 – “You see, we are not like the many hucksters who preach for personal profit. We preach the word of God with sincerity and with Christ’s authority, knowing that God is watching us (NLT).”
1 Peter 5:2 – “Be good shepherds of the flock God has put in your care. Do not care for the flock as if you were made to. Do not care for the flock for money, but do it because you want to (NLV).”
If you are currently attending a church that has a preacher, pastor or teacher that teaches this totally unbiblical ten percent false tithe, pray for them and do not place another penny into the plate until you hear from God. Instead, do what Paul taught in 2 Corinthians; give to each other within the church.
2 Corinthians 8:11-15 - “Give in proportion to what you have. Whatever you give is acceptable if you give it eagerly. And give according to what you have, not what you don’t have. Of course, I don’t mean your giving should make life easy for others and hard for yourselves. I only mean that there should be some equality. Right now you have plenty and can help those who are in need. Later, they will have plenty and can share with you when you need it. In this way, things will be equal (NLT).”
Does this seem fair to you? I hope so.
Monday, September 5, 2011
Monday, June 27, 2011
Biblical Christian Rock
The cross (or crucifixion) was an ancient torture instrument used by the Roman Empire and other primeval societies to execute criminals. It was a symbol of the world and known for death, torture and public humiliation. Rome was not the only society who used the cross for execution purposes. Alexander the Great hung 2,000 people on crosses when the city of Tyre was destroyed.
“From the early days of the Roman Republic, death on the cross was used for rebellious slaves and bandits, although Roman citizens were rarely subjected to this method of execution. The practice continued well beyond the New Testament period as one of the supreme punishments for military and political crimes such as desertion, spying, revealing secrets, rebellion, and sedition. Following the conversion of the emperor Constantine to Christianity, the cross became a sacred symbol and its use by Romans as a means of torture and death was abolished.”
The cross was never a Christian symbol or did it have any Christian meaning until Constantine. You might say that Constantine “redefined” the meaning of the cross and it has now has become the new symbol of redemption for the sake of Christ. These days, many Christians actually wear this ancient and worldly symbol of death, humiliation and execution around their necks as jewelry as a symbol of their faith.
This is the very same contrast between the worldly Rock and Roll music and the godly Christian Rock. According to the Bereans (www.bereanbeacon.org/), Rock and Roll is evil, demonic and fleshly. I agree. However, my argument is that Christian Rock is not evil, demonic or fleshly. I submit that Christian Rock is holy, godly and fully Christian in its origin. How and why, you may ask?
The reason is because just as Constantine redefined the cross, Christians have “redefined” Christian Rock. The “Rock” in the title “Christian Rock” does not mean Christians who love to have sex in the back of cars; that is the worldly definition according to the quotes the Bereans have posted from worldly Rock and Roll musicians. The “Rock” in Christian Rock means that Christ is the biblical “Rock” and foundation of the heart of the music.
“The word “rock” is often used figuratively in the Bible to speak of God and Christ. As Rock, God is the Creator (Deut. 32:18), His people’s strength (Deut. 32:4), His people’s defense and refuge (Ps. 31:2–3; 94:22), and His people’s salvation (Deut. 32:15; Ps. 89:26). In the New Testament, Christ is the Rock from whom the Spirit of life flows (John 4:13–14; 1 Cor. 10:4), the foundation of the church (Matt. 16:18) and its cornerstone (Eph. 2:20).”
Christian Rock is totally biblical and redefined to tell the world that Christ is, what He has done and what He will do. Christian Rock has taken from what the world loves and has redefined it in order to glorify Christ as the one and only redeemer of mankind. For Christ is the spiritual Rock and Peter, whose name means rock, was the first mentioned in the bible to be commissioned as the receiver of this spiritual truth in which Jesus said to him, “That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). ” This revelation of truth was not an idea from carnal man but from the Spirit in which Jesus says, “for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven (Matthew 16:17).”
Allow me to reiterate and get this through your thick skulls please. “Hear and give ear: Do not be proud, For the LORD has spoken (Jeremiah 13:15).” Christian Rock is Christian to the very core. If it were not for Christ Himself, Christian Rock would not exist! Let me remind you though, not every song from a Christian Rock band is always about Christ or about God. Some songs deal with the personal struggle of sin in someone’s life or the resistance and overcoming of an addiction that has victory in Christ. Not every Scripture talks about Christ or God either; many Scriptures do not even mention Christ’ name. He has many names and He means many different things to different people; so does Christian Rock. As there are many topics, parables and stories mentioned from Genesis to Revelation, they are as many songs from Christian Rock, Rap, Punk and Contemporary bands as well.
Why would the Bereans assume that Christians who like, listen to or play instruments in a Christian band would associate sex with Christian music? Because that’s the way the Bereans think. They believe that they are the only ones who have the monopoly on truth. The Bereans believe that they are the only ones who have the right answers and the right teachings. The Bereans believe that what they believe is the only way to believe and if you disagree with what they teach or believe, you are a heretic or an apostate. Plain and simple, the Bereans are the New Testament version of the Old Testament Pharisees or Sadducees. If you disagree with what the Bereans teach, they will make a public mockery of you and verbally hang you for the entire world to see as to teach you a lesson not to disagree with them.
Christian Rock has numerous subcategories as well. There is Contemporary, Metal, Rap, Praise and Worship, Black Metal and Punk. These subcategories are also founded upon the “Rock” of Christ, not the Rock and Roll of the world who glorifies sex in the back seat of a car.
My advice to the Bereans is this; if you do not fully understand Christian Rock, do not comment until you know all of the facts. The facts can only be known if you have listened to, researched and investigated lyrics, testimonies and the musicians’ intentions and heart behind the songs. Facts are not what you say they are, facts are facts and they come from first hand observation, not outside biased opinions. If you do not read the lyrics, listen to or play an instrument in a Christian Rock band, you are not qualified to critic on it.
If you do not like loud music, don’t listen to it. Being a Berean does not give you a holy license to accuse other Christians of being “fleshly” or “worldly” because you do not like Christian Rock. Let’s face it; the Bereans have absolutely no Scriptures to back up their belief that Christian Rock is “fleshly” or “evil.” Personally, I do not like praise music that includes only a piano and an organ. I find it boring, mundane and unexciting. However, you don’t find me preaching about it in a negative manner. I may not like it but it doesn’t mean I have a right to condemn the music or those who choose to listen to it. God is a God of variety and He created in us the abilities and talents to be diverse, not only in skin color and facial characteristics but also in music and other ways He made man.
Can you imagine that if every Christian liked and listened to the same music and we all dressed the same, had the same haircuts, the same skills, the same thoughts, the same dreams, same talents and all had the same language? We would be virtually a bunch of boring robots that are headed for a cultural descent into a society of pure dullness. I wouldn’t be surprised that at some point, many people would probably beg for sudden death instead of dying of slow boredom.
If you do not know the origins of any video made by these Christian artists, then you are not qualified to comment. Videos on youtube.com made by Christian Bands have many or multiple meanings. Some of which you may not know the real meaning or background or intentions of the heart of the band members or the video director. If you see dead people in a video made by Christian bands, it probably does not mean that they glorify death or worship the devil. It may mean that the band members are trying to convey the message of being once dead to God before coming to Christ. If you absolutely do not know the exact meanings, you are not qualified to negatively comment until knowing all of the facts.
It is not a sin listen to or play an instrument in a Christian Rock, Contemporary or Metal band or group. There are absolutely no Scriptures that imply that anyone can lose their salvation because of listening to any kind of music. Where in the bible does it say “Thou shalt not bang thy head?” Where does it say, “Thou shalt not dance” or “Thou shalt not play guitars loudly” or “Thou shalt not scream lyrics” or “Thou shalt not dress in spandex” or “Thou shalt not play drums” or “Thou shalt not play music loud?” The Scriptures do suggest any of these things, so why do the Bereans insist that Christian Rock is “fleshly” or “evil?”
I know why. It’s because the Bereans hate it. They hate it because some Christians might actually enjoy Christian Rock music that is loud, fast, heart-pumping, intense and exciting. And, the very thought of actually enjoying music they hate is an abomination to them. How can they call themselves Christians when they hate what is from God? “He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he (Deuteronomy 32:4).”
Christian musicians and people who listen to Christian Rock, Rap or Metal are not accountable to the Bereans. By the very thought of the Beareans trying to police the music that Christians are led to listen to or worship with, is appalling and arrogant and the Bereans should be ashamed of themselves. Every Christian, regardless of their individual taste in music, is accountable only to God for whatever they do in the body. “Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable (Hebrews 4:13).
“So my advice is, leave these men alone. Let them go. If they are planning and doing these things merely on their own, it will soon be overthrown. But if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You may even find yourselves fighting against God! (Acts 5:38-39)”
Monday, May 9, 2011
Having the Strength to Hate Evil
Lately, I have been getting this weird sense that some people are confused about whether or not it is acceptable to hate evil. I posted a note about “The Death of Osama Bin Laden” (originally titled “Hatred of Osama Bin Laden) on my Facebook profile and got the strangest comments from an old friend and from another recent friend that seemed to be suggesting that we are supposed to love everything. I hope that I am wrong about this. Even though God is love, and I am expected to love God and others, I refuse to love everything.
One whole day after I posted my note about hating the evil of Osama Bin Laden (OBL), there were four Facebook friends that quoted the following Martin Luther King, Jr. on their status’. (I am assuming that they didn’t want to respond to my status because of the fear that someone else might see their comments or didn’t want to argue publically. I, on the other hand, do not fear man or man’s opinions but only God’s alone.) I once heard that when we have a fear of the Lord, we lose the fear of man.
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction....The chain reaction of evil--hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars--must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.” ~ Martin Luther King, Jr., Strength To Love, 1963.
In 1 John 2:9 the old prophet says, “If anyone claims, “I am living in the light,” but hates a Christian brother or sister, that person is still living in darkness.” MLK is correct with his first two sentences. MLK’s third sentence is correct as well. King Solomon said, “If you repay good with evil, evil will never leave your house (Proverbs 17:13).”
Here’s the problem, when I hate the evils of OBL; that does not make me the evil one, it makes me the righteous one. Why? Because OBL is the evil one! He is the one who unmercifully murdered unarmed and innocent people without provocation. He is the one that was driven by false religion for his hatred of America and what we stand for, which are freedom, truth and justice. Anyone who hates like this man did, is anti-Christ. He is bound by his hatred for everything that is good; he has believed the lie that his evil is good in the sight of his false god, Allah.
The “chain reaction” of evil lies with the people who hate others because of who they are; such as the color of their skin, their religion or nationality. MLK was directing this speech directly to white supremacist. However, this is a universal principle that can be applied to Muslim extremist radicals as well. OBL and others like him started this “war” against the USA, the “infidels” and everything our great nation stands for.
During a time of war (Ecc. 3), it is customary to defend or attack. In this war against terrorism, (which is actually against Islamic Extremists and originates in demonic influence in my book) we are on the defense by attacking the offender before they are able. It’s called strategy and we are in a war to win it, not come out with our tail between our legs crying like dead babies. Why? Because our way of life (freedom, justice) is at stake, my family’s safety is at stake. Even though Christians war not against flesh and blood, our government does.
I support the government, as we should because the government is established by God Himself.
1. Titus 3:1 - “Remind the believers to submit to the government and its officers. They should be obedient, always ready to do what is good.”
2. Romans 13:6 - “Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid. They are serving God in what they do.”
3. Isaiah 9:6 – “For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
Now, let’s go back and examine this quote of MLK in the proper context. MLK is not suggesting that we should not hate evil. He is saying that when men hate other men because of the color of their skin, the nation they hail from or the religion they practice, there is unwarranted hatred and it is morally wrong. If I hated OBL because he was Middle Eastern or because his skin color was brown or because he is a Muslim, then MLK’s speech would be applicable to me. But, MLK’s speech does not apply to me because I’m not the one who hates Osama Bin Laden or Muslim’s. I only hate the evil deeds which he has done.
Just because people celebrated when Osama Bin Laden was shot dead, does NOT mean they were happy for his death. Now, if the Muslim’s see American’s celebrating on TV, they may think that we are celebrating the death of OBL. However, I’m not worried about what they think; I’m concerned with the defense of my family and the safety of my temporary home. Furthermore, the death of OBL will not stop the hatred Muslim’s have for the West.
Don’t you remember what happened in the book of Exodus with the Hebrews who were set free from 400 plus years of slavery? Moses, went in to Pharaoh and demands, “Let’s my people go.” Why? Because Pharaoh’s heart was hardened (hate) against God’s people and the Hebrews were unjustly slaves of Egypt. After 10 plagues against Egypt and Pharaoh’s oldest son dies, the Hebrew’s were finally set free. Then afterwards, Pharaoh decided to hate more and sent his army after the Hebrews to kill them in the wilderness.
After God splits the Red Sea and the Hebrew’s travel over to the other side of the sea, the Pharaoh’s armies decide to chase them through the open waters. God released the waters and killed Pharaoh and all his army. Do you know what happened next?
The Hebrew’s sang and song in celebration of their deliverance from the evil Pharaoh’s armies. They weren’t singing to celebrate the deaths of the Egyptians; they were celebrating in the justice of God and of the deliverance from evil. Then after this first song, the prophetess Miriam started dancing and singing unto the Lord for his glorious triumph over Pharaoh’s army. It was justified and appropriate; it was never rebuked.
Moreover, because I quoted God’s word saying, “All who fear the Lord will hate evil (Proverbs 8:13), some people have not properly discerned between the two kinds of hatred. There is a distinct difference between hating a man because of his color and hating because of the evil deeds a man has committed. Do you see it? I don’t hate the man himself; I hate the evil of the man. Even God the Father Himself doesn’t hate the man but hates the evil of man.
Again, God does not hate the man but the evil things (deeds) of the evil men. Speaking to the church members at Ephesus, Jesus says to the people, “But this is in your favor: You hate the evil deeds of the Nicolaitans, just as I do (Revelation 2:6).” Therefore, Jesus hates the evil deeds but not the men themselves.
This quote was directed to the Son from the Father in heaven, “You love justice and hate evil (Hebrews 1:9).” Thus, Jesus Christ hates evil and loves justice. Jesus does not love justice and love evil at the same time.
Again, this is a recurring character of God found also in Psalm 97:10 – “You who love the Lord, hate evil!” Therefore, as God hates the evil of men, so should we as followers of Christ hate evil.
In Amos chapter 5 there is a call to repentance for Israel in which the prophet writes, “Hate evil and love what is good; turn your courts into true halls of justice.” God’s hearts desire for Israel was for them to hate evil, love what is good and to bring criminals to justice. There is nothing wrong with hating evil!
King Solomon, who was the wisest man alive, besides Christ himself, said “For everything there is a season, a time for every activity under heaven. A time to love and a time to hate. A time for war and a time for peace (Ecclesiastes 3:1,8).” There is a time and place to hate and if it is evil, you should hate it.
Jesus even made this point clear when he said, “No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other; you will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money (Matthew 6:24).” Since God is God and money is a god (idol), no one can serve them both because they are unable to coexist in harmony. God is rooted in pure holiness and money is the root of all kinds of evil. In this way, neither can you serve love and serve hate with love. You must love one and hate the other. That is, to love the good and hate evil. My point is that you cannot love evil and love holiness at the same time. You either have to love or hate, not love and love. Even though God is love, God hates evil.
When a person suggests that we must love everything and hate nothing, there is a lack of discernment and an attitude of indifference. Christians are not supposed to be a people of confusion but of simplicity. There is confusion among these people and a thought process in opposition to the mind of Christ. Why? Because God’s spirit of truth is not within them or they have ignored the Spirit’s teaching and prompting of spiritual truths.
Paul warned Timothy about this saying, “For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3).” You cannot agree with your own theology and deny God’s; they are incompatible.
In conclusion, may I suggest that as followers of Christ we should hate what God hates and love what God loves. I cannot expect unbelievers to follow or accept this biblical teaching because they cannot reason it without the Holy Spirit’s help. Christians cannot love what is evil and love what is good. We cannot hate what is evil and hate what is good in the same breathe.
However, we can love our enemies and be a blessing to them. We can pray for our enemies as well so that they would find Christ. We must hate what is evil and love what is good. This is what the bible teaches; this is what God’s Words says. You can either take it or leave it, it’s your choice.
One whole day after I posted my note about hating the evil of Osama Bin Laden (OBL), there were four Facebook friends that quoted the following Martin Luther King, Jr. on their status’. (I am assuming that they didn’t want to respond to my status because of the fear that someone else might see their comments or didn’t want to argue publically. I, on the other hand, do not fear man or man’s opinions but only God’s alone.) I once heard that when we have a fear of the Lord, we lose the fear of man.
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction....The chain reaction of evil--hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars--must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.” ~ Martin Luther King, Jr., Strength To Love, 1963.
In 1 John 2:9 the old prophet says, “If anyone claims, “I am living in the light,” but hates a Christian brother or sister, that person is still living in darkness.” MLK is correct with his first two sentences. MLK’s third sentence is correct as well. King Solomon said, “If you repay good with evil, evil will never leave your house (Proverbs 17:13).”
Here’s the problem, when I hate the evils of OBL; that does not make me the evil one, it makes me the righteous one. Why? Because OBL is the evil one! He is the one who unmercifully murdered unarmed and innocent people without provocation. He is the one that was driven by false religion for his hatred of America and what we stand for, which are freedom, truth and justice. Anyone who hates like this man did, is anti-Christ. He is bound by his hatred for everything that is good; he has believed the lie that his evil is good in the sight of his false god, Allah.
The “chain reaction” of evil lies with the people who hate others because of who they are; such as the color of their skin, their religion or nationality. MLK was directing this speech directly to white supremacist. However, this is a universal principle that can be applied to Muslim extremist radicals as well. OBL and others like him started this “war” against the USA, the “infidels” and everything our great nation stands for.
During a time of war (Ecc. 3), it is customary to defend or attack. In this war against terrorism, (which is actually against Islamic Extremists and originates in demonic influence in my book) we are on the defense by attacking the offender before they are able. It’s called strategy and we are in a war to win it, not come out with our tail between our legs crying like dead babies. Why? Because our way of life (freedom, justice) is at stake, my family’s safety is at stake. Even though Christians war not against flesh and blood, our government does.
I support the government, as we should because the government is established by God Himself.
1. Titus 3:1 - “Remind the believers to submit to the government and its officers. They should be obedient, always ready to do what is good.”
2. Romans 13:6 - “Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid. They are serving God in what they do.”
3. Isaiah 9:6 – “For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
Now, let’s go back and examine this quote of MLK in the proper context. MLK is not suggesting that we should not hate evil. He is saying that when men hate other men because of the color of their skin, the nation they hail from or the religion they practice, there is unwarranted hatred and it is morally wrong. If I hated OBL because he was Middle Eastern or because his skin color was brown or because he is a Muslim, then MLK’s speech would be applicable to me. But, MLK’s speech does not apply to me because I’m not the one who hates Osama Bin Laden or Muslim’s. I only hate the evil deeds which he has done.
Just because people celebrated when Osama Bin Laden was shot dead, does NOT mean they were happy for his death. Now, if the Muslim’s see American’s celebrating on TV, they may think that we are celebrating the death of OBL. However, I’m not worried about what they think; I’m concerned with the defense of my family and the safety of my temporary home. Furthermore, the death of OBL will not stop the hatred Muslim’s have for the West.
Don’t you remember what happened in the book of Exodus with the Hebrews who were set free from 400 plus years of slavery? Moses, went in to Pharaoh and demands, “Let’s my people go.” Why? Because Pharaoh’s heart was hardened (hate) against God’s people and the Hebrews were unjustly slaves of Egypt. After 10 plagues against Egypt and Pharaoh’s oldest son dies, the Hebrew’s were finally set free. Then afterwards, Pharaoh decided to hate more and sent his army after the Hebrews to kill them in the wilderness.
After God splits the Red Sea and the Hebrew’s travel over to the other side of the sea, the Pharaoh’s armies decide to chase them through the open waters. God released the waters and killed Pharaoh and all his army. Do you know what happened next?
The Hebrew’s sang and song in celebration of their deliverance from the evil Pharaoh’s armies. They weren’t singing to celebrate the deaths of the Egyptians; they were celebrating in the justice of God and of the deliverance from evil. Then after this first song, the prophetess Miriam started dancing and singing unto the Lord for his glorious triumph over Pharaoh’s army. It was justified and appropriate; it was never rebuked.
Moreover, because I quoted God’s word saying, “All who fear the Lord will hate evil (Proverbs 8:13), some people have not properly discerned between the two kinds of hatred. There is a distinct difference between hating a man because of his color and hating because of the evil deeds a man has committed. Do you see it? I don’t hate the man himself; I hate the evil of the man. Even God the Father Himself doesn’t hate the man but hates the evil of man.
Again, God does not hate the man but the evil things (deeds) of the evil men. Speaking to the church members at Ephesus, Jesus says to the people, “But this is in your favor: You hate the evil deeds of the Nicolaitans, just as I do (Revelation 2:6).” Therefore, Jesus hates the evil deeds but not the men themselves.
This quote was directed to the Son from the Father in heaven, “You love justice and hate evil (Hebrews 1:9).” Thus, Jesus Christ hates evil and loves justice. Jesus does not love justice and love evil at the same time.
Again, this is a recurring character of God found also in Psalm 97:10 – “You who love the Lord, hate evil!” Therefore, as God hates the evil of men, so should we as followers of Christ hate evil.
In Amos chapter 5 there is a call to repentance for Israel in which the prophet writes, “Hate evil and love what is good; turn your courts into true halls of justice.” God’s hearts desire for Israel was for them to hate evil, love what is good and to bring criminals to justice. There is nothing wrong with hating evil!
King Solomon, who was the wisest man alive, besides Christ himself, said “For everything there is a season, a time for every activity under heaven. A time to love and a time to hate. A time for war and a time for peace (Ecclesiastes 3:1,8).” There is a time and place to hate and if it is evil, you should hate it.
Jesus even made this point clear when he said, “No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other; you will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money (Matthew 6:24).” Since God is God and money is a god (idol), no one can serve them both because they are unable to coexist in harmony. God is rooted in pure holiness and money is the root of all kinds of evil. In this way, neither can you serve love and serve hate with love. You must love one and hate the other. That is, to love the good and hate evil. My point is that you cannot love evil and love holiness at the same time. You either have to love or hate, not love and love. Even though God is love, God hates evil.
When a person suggests that we must love everything and hate nothing, there is a lack of discernment and an attitude of indifference. Christians are not supposed to be a people of confusion but of simplicity. There is confusion among these people and a thought process in opposition to the mind of Christ. Why? Because God’s spirit of truth is not within them or they have ignored the Spirit’s teaching and prompting of spiritual truths.
Paul warned Timothy about this saying, “For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3).” You cannot agree with your own theology and deny God’s; they are incompatible.
In conclusion, may I suggest that as followers of Christ we should hate what God hates and love what God loves. I cannot expect unbelievers to follow or accept this biblical teaching because they cannot reason it without the Holy Spirit’s help. Christians cannot love what is evil and love what is good. We cannot hate what is evil and hate what is good in the same breathe.
However, we can love our enemies and be a blessing to them. We can pray for our enemies as well so that they would find Christ. We must hate what is evil and love what is good. This is what the bible teaches; this is what God’s Words says. You can either take it or leave it, it’s your choice.
Monday, May 2, 2011
The Death of Osama Bin Laden
It is not a sin to hate evil. I do not believe in revenge. However, I do believe in justice. Not only is there a time to love but there is also a time to hate. As Christians, we are to hate evil just as God hates evil (Ps 97:10). Proverbs 8:13 says, “All who fear the Lord will hate evil.” King David writes in Psalm 139:19-22 saying, “O God, if only you would destroy the wicked! Get out of my life, you murderers! They blaspheme you; your enemies misuse your name. O Lord, shouldn’t I hate those who hate you? Shouldn’t I despise those who oppose you? Yes, I hate them with total hatred, for your enemies are my enemies.” Hatred is a valid emotion and the proper moral response to the human encounter with inhuman cruelty. I believe that mass murderers bring forth our deepest hatred and contempt the most. How dare you defend the death of Osama Bin Laden; you should ashamed of yourself.
I am not dancing in celebration of Osama Bin Laden’s death. No one is happy to hear of another person’s death. I am celebrating that there is justice that was served by his death. Osama Bin Laden’s death was symbolic and by his death, many people can truly believe and have some closure in their hearts that justice against so many inhuman cruelties was final and gone forever from this world by his hands. By his death, many people can truly believe that good overcomes evil. The same goes for Hitler when he killed himself in his bunker. There was a celebration, not that Hitler was dead but by his death there was victory of good over the evil atrocities he poured out upon millions of innocent people who never deserved death. To dance and celebrate purely over the death of another person, regardless of who they were, is just morally wrong.
On the day that I heard of the death of Osama Bin Laden, I posted the following on my facebook status, “Now that Bin Laden is dead, it's our opportunity to go to the Taliban and bring them to their knees, leaving no survivors, having no mercy. Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out!” The below comments are what I posted after others had commented on my status.
As Christians, we are not commanded to follow the Law of Moses, which include the Ten Commandments. Trying to follow the Law brings a curse of death upon you because you are not living by faith. The whole purpose of the Law was to show you that you are a sinner. No one can be saved by following the Ten Commandments. Now that we know we are sinners, have repented of our sins and received Christ as Savior, we now live under grace by faith. That doesn't mean that we cannot go to war, fight our enemies or that we should be a passive, scared nation of prudes. Jesus never said, “Thou shalt not go to war and defend your-selves.” Jesus expounded upon the Ten Commandments to show you that you need Him, not to make you righteous by following “Thou shalt not….”
Before the Law, Abraham was considered by God to be righteous based upon his faith, not obedience to any laws. Abraham retaliated against his enemies by going to them at night, slitting their throats and killed all of them mercilessly leaving only the war booty behind. He gave ten percent to God, gave thanks and glory to Him for defeating his enemies and God blessed him! Was Abraham being hateful or revengeful? No, he was doing what was right. It's the very same scenario when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation period. He will return to destroy all traces of his enemies who stand against Him in defiance. Is Jesus being revengeful or hateful? No, He will be doing what is right. This is what I mean by “Kill ‘em all and let God sort ‘em out.” If Abraham can do it, Jesus can do it and God can do it, why can I suggest it? It’s all with the same heart and attitude. I am not talking about hatred or revenge but of defense and a road to temporary peace. Only true peace comes from Christ. How can you have peace without war when the enemy hates you and wants to kill you mercilessly? Just as Jesus will do and God will do, we will do; that is, take them out before they even begin to attack us again.
There's nothing wrong with praying for your enemies, I recommend it. You should pray that in the war time that there would be an opportunity for all of your enemies to get a chance to hear the gospel, repent and come to Christ. I would do the same thing if I was there. However, in the midst of battle there is no time for talking because there is opposition.
Don’t you understand? The Taliban and Al Qaeda want to kill you, your family and destroy our country! They want Sharia Law to be instituted in the USA! They have nothing but brainwashed hatred against the USA and Christians. I have a godly responsibility to protect my family and my country. But, again if the opportunity came about, I would preach to the Taliban and Al Qaeda the gospel story and offer the chance to receive Christ. However, as I stated before in the midst of war, I cannot do that if I am being shot at or if bombs are being dropped on me!
Christians are not supposed to be a bunch of weak, whiney and introverted cowards. The bible is full of references concerning the Christian life. Paul mentioned the full armor of God; we are soldiers of Christ and in God’s army. When Christ returns to earth, we will follow Christ in white robes on horses as His “army of heaven.” Yes, I understand this is a spiritual war as well as a physical war. However, how can we preach the love of Christ when our enemies want to kill us mercilessly as well? Again, pray for the Taliban and Al Qaeda that during this war that the gospel will reach their hearts. Meanwhile, we must not allow evil men to prosper while good men do nothing.
Please, do not get me wrong. I am not saying that we should NOT have ANY mercy upon those who are our enemies. However, during the heat of battle there is only war and it is a merciless action. However, when there is opportunity for mercy and justice we should extend it to everyone who is willing to receive it.
During a war, people will die; it’s just a fact of life and death. Please do not get me wrong. I am not saying that we should not love our enemies, we should. However, I don’t believe Jesus meant for us to love this evil man in the sense of to “love evil.” To do so is to make a complete mockery of all that is good and just in this world. Don’t you know that when you offer love/respect to a criminal instead of a penalty for his crimes that you automatically justify his actions? I believe that Jesus meant for us to love the evil person but hate the evil of the person.
Therefore, as I stated earlier in this note, this is not unjustified hatred towards Osama; I do not know him personally. I absolutely have no reason to hate Osama Bin Laden on a personal basis. However, I do hate what he has been responsible for, which are the evil acts and atrocities brought upon others by his faulty religious views. The celebration of his death is not personal but symbolic of the end of his evil ways and that justice was served. I am happy to live in a country that values the good over the evil and will not stand by and see innocent people being victimized by cruel, wicked and evil men.
I am not dancing in celebration of Osama Bin Laden’s death. No one is happy to hear of another person’s death. I am celebrating that there is justice that was served by his death. Osama Bin Laden’s death was symbolic and by his death, many people can truly believe and have some closure in their hearts that justice against so many inhuman cruelties was final and gone forever from this world by his hands. By his death, many people can truly believe that good overcomes evil. The same goes for Hitler when he killed himself in his bunker. There was a celebration, not that Hitler was dead but by his death there was victory of good over the evil atrocities he poured out upon millions of innocent people who never deserved death. To dance and celebrate purely over the death of another person, regardless of who they were, is just morally wrong.
On the day that I heard of the death of Osama Bin Laden, I posted the following on my facebook status, “Now that Bin Laden is dead, it's our opportunity to go to the Taliban and bring them to their knees, leaving no survivors, having no mercy. Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out!” The below comments are what I posted after others had commented on my status.
As Christians, we are not commanded to follow the Law of Moses, which include the Ten Commandments. Trying to follow the Law brings a curse of death upon you because you are not living by faith. The whole purpose of the Law was to show you that you are a sinner. No one can be saved by following the Ten Commandments. Now that we know we are sinners, have repented of our sins and received Christ as Savior, we now live under grace by faith. That doesn't mean that we cannot go to war, fight our enemies or that we should be a passive, scared nation of prudes. Jesus never said, “Thou shalt not go to war and defend your-selves.” Jesus expounded upon the Ten Commandments to show you that you need Him, not to make you righteous by following “Thou shalt not….”
Before the Law, Abraham was considered by God to be righteous based upon his faith, not obedience to any laws. Abraham retaliated against his enemies by going to them at night, slitting their throats and killed all of them mercilessly leaving only the war booty behind. He gave ten percent to God, gave thanks and glory to Him for defeating his enemies and God blessed him! Was Abraham being hateful or revengeful? No, he was doing what was right. It's the very same scenario when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation period. He will return to destroy all traces of his enemies who stand against Him in defiance. Is Jesus being revengeful or hateful? No, He will be doing what is right. This is what I mean by “Kill ‘em all and let God sort ‘em out.” If Abraham can do it, Jesus can do it and God can do it, why can I suggest it? It’s all with the same heart and attitude. I am not talking about hatred or revenge but of defense and a road to temporary peace. Only true peace comes from Christ. How can you have peace without war when the enemy hates you and wants to kill you mercilessly? Just as Jesus will do and God will do, we will do; that is, take them out before they even begin to attack us again.
There's nothing wrong with praying for your enemies, I recommend it. You should pray that in the war time that there would be an opportunity for all of your enemies to get a chance to hear the gospel, repent and come to Christ. I would do the same thing if I was there. However, in the midst of battle there is no time for talking because there is opposition.
Don’t you understand? The Taliban and Al Qaeda want to kill you, your family and destroy our country! They want Sharia Law to be instituted in the USA! They have nothing but brainwashed hatred against the USA and Christians. I have a godly responsibility to protect my family and my country. But, again if the opportunity came about, I would preach to the Taliban and Al Qaeda the gospel story and offer the chance to receive Christ. However, as I stated before in the midst of war, I cannot do that if I am being shot at or if bombs are being dropped on me!
Christians are not supposed to be a bunch of weak, whiney and introverted cowards. The bible is full of references concerning the Christian life. Paul mentioned the full armor of God; we are soldiers of Christ and in God’s army. When Christ returns to earth, we will follow Christ in white robes on horses as His “army of heaven.” Yes, I understand this is a spiritual war as well as a physical war. However, how can we preach the love of Christ when our enemies want to kill us mercilessly as well? Again, pray for the Taliban and Al Qaeda that during this war that the gospel will reach their hearts. Meanwhile, we must not allow evil men to prosper while good men do nothing.
Please, do not get me wrong. I am not saying that we should NOT have ANY mercy upon those who are our enemies. However, during the heat of battle there is only war and it is a merciless action. However, when there is opportunity for mercy and justice we should extend it to everyone who is willing to receive it.
During a war, people will die; it’s just a fact of life and death. Please do not get me wrong. I am not saying that we should not love our enemies, we should. However, I don’t believe Jesus meant for us to love this evil man in the sense of to “love evil.” To do so is to make a complete mockery of all that is good and just in this world. Don’t you know that when you offer love/respect to a criminal instead of a penalty for his crimes that you automatically justify his actions? I believe that Jesus meant for us to love the evil person but hate the evil of the person.
Therefore, as I stated earlier in this note, this is not unjustified hatred towards Osama; I do not know him personally. I absolutely have no reason to hate Osama Bin Laden on a personal basis. However, I do hate what he has been responsible for, which are the evil acts and atrocities brought upon others by his faulty religious views. The celebration of his death is not personal but symbolic of the end of his evil ways and that justice was served. I am happy to live in a country that values the good over the evil and will not stand by and see innocent people being victimized by cruel, wicked and evil men.
Tuesday, February 15, 2011
What Lies Underneath
My vision is clouded. I cannot perceive beyond the haze of the days. It’s like seeing with one eye open and my face is covered with a veil of shadows. I am blinded.
A few things I can make out but I don’t have the lucid image. Everything is distorted and merged. I do not know the specifics and my perception deceives me. Should I judge before I see? Do I know the whole story?
I do not know what lies underneath.
Only fools make haste in final decisions without all the clues. Would I be a fool? I can only see this side of the river bank. All I see are half-truths and who am I to believe?
What lies underneath? I do not know. I do not know.
Lord, destroy my conceit and debase me so that I may not judge. Remove the log from my own eye before I try to remove the splinter from my brother’s eye. Show me what it means to have grace and forgiveness.
Lose my religion and expose your great love to me so I may learn to love those who have stumbled as well. Amen.
A few things I can make out but I don’t have the lucid image. Everything is distorted and merged. I do not know the specifics and my perception deceives me. Should I judge before I see? Do I know the whole story?
I do not know what lies underneath.
Only fools make haste in final decisions without all the clues. Would I be a fool? I can only see this side of the river bank. All I see are half-truths and who am I to believe?
What lies underneath? I do not know. I do not know.
Lord, destroy my conceit and debase me so that I may not judge. Remove the log from my own eye before I try to remove the splinter from my brother’s eye. Show me what it means to have grace and forgiveness.
Lose my religion and expose your great love to me so I may learn to love those who have stumbled as well. Amen.
Sunday, February 13, 2011
Loudman12 vs. MartyJSwizzle
The following is comments from a video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY6Dn0_hBOY
MartyJSwizzle = Christian
loudman12 = Atheist
@MartyJSwizzle - I see so by your logic God creates a person knowing if they are evil. My next point then will be by your logic, rapists’ murderers and pedophiles are allowed to continue these acts until judgment day. 1) why would god allow them to be created knowing this? 2. What about the innocent people who even though god knew ahead of time will suffer? 3. Why does not god punish them there and then??? he didn’t have a problem killing every body during the BIG FLOOD!!!!! - loudman12
@loudman12 - omg, really? Serious? You guys just don't get it do ya? I am a Christian, we will never agree....ever! I am with Christ and I belong to Him and to Him alone. All this talk about why this and why that, is useless. You guys will never understand. Let's just agree to disagree. See ya on the other side. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle I also notice that you did not actually answer my question ummmm what a surprise, either change the subject or rabble about Jesus Christ, well I give you credit at least you stay true to the same tactic. "you guys will never understand" oh but your wrong we do understand, that’s why we atheists cause unlike you we choose to think not become another religious sheep. £See ya on the other side ??? is this the best you can do sigh!!!!
@loudman12 – I am ignoring your derision and sarcasm. Why would God allow rapists, murderers and pedophiles to be created knowing that they will be evil and will continue until Judgment Day? The main reason is because God is merciful. You are a sinner as well, even though you may have not physically murdered someone, you are still guilty of the same crimes against God because you have been angry at someone.
@loudman12 - According to God’s standards, if you have been angry at someone, you might as well have murdered them because you have already committed murder in your heart against them. The same goes for rapist and pedophiles.
@loudman12 - I am not suggesting that you are a rapist, murderer or pedophile. I am suggesting that according the bible, if you have broken only one of the standards (Ten Commandments) that God holds as being righteous in His sight, then you might as well have broken them all. God wants men to repent and turn away from their sins and turn to Him.
@loudman12 - God desires to have a personal relationship with Him by putting their trust and faith in Him for salvation from God’s wrath that will be poured upon the unbelieving and wicked in the end days. Because of Christ, all God’s wrath from the OT was poured upon Jesus. Thus, for a time, God ignores people’s sins in hopes they will repent and turn to Him for a relationship.
@loudman12 - What about the innocent people, who even though God knew ahead of time, will suffer? People will always suffer, not always from evil men who do them harm but from the natural human condition that is in us all. None of us are immune. It is a terrible tragedy that people have to endure pain and suffering in this lifetime. However, I believe the reason God allows it to happen is to show men that they really do need Him.
@loudman12 - Only God can rescue the worst murderers and the world’s most evil men by transforming their hearts from evil to good. However, God can only do that if they are willing to change; most are not willing to give in to God because of their pride. There are many examples in the bible.
@loudman12 - Why does not God punish them there and then? The reason God doesn’t punish the evil people immediately is because God desires none to perish and wants all men to turn away from their evil ways and be restored. That’s why God is called merciful.
@loudman12 - The reason that God flooded the earth is written in the bible. Anyone can read it and find the answer. However, since most atheists neglect to do the research on their own, I will give the answer to you. Genesis 6:11-12. Also, if you go back a few weeks on this post, I already fully covered this topic.
@loudman12 - There, you have my answers. They are MY answers as I understand them. I know you will disagree, that’s okay but don’t tell me I’m wrong, even though privately you think I am wrong. I am not telling you that you are wrong in your atheism beliefs. Now, privately I believe that you are wrong but I’m not going to argue about it and try to prove things for the sake of disagreement because it does no good to bicker back and forth; it only ends in bitterness.
@loudman12 - I am simply defending the false accusations made against my religion by people who do not really know the other side of the coin (perspective). When I defend the false claims, I am trying to shed light upon what and why we believe. Are we wrong? Maybe, but it’s not your place to say so. It’s better to simply try and understand each other’s perspectives and learn from them even though we disagree.
@MartyJSwizzle Excuse me I do know the religion and the bible, I have studied both the old and new testiment and hebrew scriptures so I am pretty clued on to what is said. False claims, we are simply quoting your bible to you what is in there.
@loudman12 - Obviously, you don't know about the bible because if you did, you wouldn't be asking me stupid questions about the bible that you yourself can find the answer to!
Why do you have to quote the bible to me, I know the bible; it's my religion, not yours!
Go bother someone else. - loudman12
@MartyJSwizzle 1. Again the same assertion that atheists dont know. I was a former chrisitan so I know the story of the flood, that story has no factual evidence apart from the bible.
@loudman12 - This is no assertion, you don't know; that's why you are ignorant of everything I'm telling you. Concerning the Flood, regardless of "factual" information, it's written as is. Stop the arguing.
How can you argue with what's written? Believe or not my friend, it's your choice. Personally, I could care less whether you do or not.
@MartyJSwizzle Oh my god I had to read this one over a few times to try and make sense of this.You have done a better job then I have done ever "GOD DESIRES NONE TO PERISH" again factually wrong there are many stories which has god in the first person tell people to kill other people, the flood, sacking of cities and the killing of the inhabidants so again fail!!!
@loudman12 - Okay, obviously I am dealing with a child or someone who is disinterested in intelligent human conversation. Didn't I just get through telling you that in the OT, God judged people immediately and then because of Christ, God poured His judgment out upon Jesus? Therefore, God no longer judges people immediately but only until after the end of time. You have to consider the OT versus the NT, there are reasons why God changed his method of dealing with people. Stop the ignorance.
@MartyJSwizzle "ignorant of everything im telling you" no its simply i am not another religious automaton who spouts crap!!! and believes in a set of beliefs that were founded in bronze age
@loudman12 - I am not a robot. I consciously chose to follow Christ on my own and I chose to believe. The same can be said for everyone with a belief system. Atheists are not immune. I wasn’t the one who started this conversation, you did. And, what I believe is no more crap than what you believe; besides, that’s you’re opinion and opinions hold no authority. Stop the ignorance.
@loudman12 - Yes, if you weren’t ignorant of everything I was telling you, then you wouldn’t have asked me questions about the bible when you already claimed to be an ex-Christian. Again, why are you still arguing with me? Didn’t I just ask you, “How can you argue with what's written? Believe or not my friend, it's your choice.” I can care less what you believe; why does it bother you what I believe? Stop the arguing.
@MartyJSwizzle oh also it will be rather funny when we all eventually die and then for example the islamic religion is the correct one and you will go to hell for not believing in mohammed lol the irony there
@loudman12 - If I die and find out that Islam was the “right” religion all along, I wouldn’t care. Why? I am losing nothing by loving God and loving people. I lived a good life and raised my children right to respect people, to love people and forgive people. So what if I worshipped God? Why does it bother you so much what I believe? It’s none of your damn business anyway. Stop the Hate.
@MartyJSwizzle Hey I dont hate I suggest you look at my You Tube page and actually read the description of me. If you choose to believe then cool no problems of that I will defend any persons right to have a faith even though I do not believe in it myself. What I take issue is your position that Because #i am no longer a chrisitian, your position I cant understand the bible. When I read the bible many times and found some quite frankly stupid stories contained within it, I was told "You Have to
loudman12 1
it the right way" I am sorry but I read things for what is stated in there. I have been told many times by believers I will burn in hell for not believing in jesus. I have no doubt that you have brought your children up to be kind etc.... I do not presume to judge. However do you think it is right for people who choose not to believe in god to be called this???. I have never broken a law, I have always ppaid my taxes, and treated people right. Does this make me a bad person??
@loudman12 - Ok, I will go and read your profile description and it’s good to know that you respect other people’s beliefs. There is some truth to reading the bible; when anyone reads the bible, it must be read “in context.” In other words, you cannot take something from the OT law and apply it to the NT. They are different in their applications. The OT was written to Israel, for Israel. However, some basic principles are universally applicable.
@loudman12 - Furthermore, Christians are not subject to the OT law even though some OT basic principles may still apply. Example, when the OT says that Israel shall eat no shellfish, that doesn’t mean that NT Christians can’t eat shellfish. However, some basic principles are universally applicable.
@loudman12 - Unlike the OT, Christians have no rules except to love one another and love God. There are no other rules. Christians have full freedom. This doesn’t mean that it is acceptable to continue in sin; it means we should seek daily to turn away from the fleshly desires and seek what pleases God. Being a Christian is not easy. It is a daily struggle.
@loudman12 - I have no doubt that you are probably a good person. Most people are good people. However, I did not write the bible, God did (of course, through prophets). I am only a messenger and a believer in God. How can I call myself a Christian and not believe in God’s Word? Would that make me a good Christian or a poor example?
@loudman12 - There is a teaching in the bible that states that people who have never heard the gospel of Christ will be judged based upon their consciences. There is also a teaching that states that people, who have heard the gospel but reject it, will go to hell. Remember, I did not write the bible, so how can you get mad at me? I am only a messenger and a believer in Christ. I knew Christ before I knew His Word. If it were up to me, I would let everyone into heaven but I am not God.
@loudman12 - Therefore, since God made the rules, how can Christians be blamed for believing that atheist will go to hell? If I believe in Christ, how can I not believe in the bible? Personally, I don’t think it is right for a Christian to tell you that you are going to hell or treat you poorly. Since, Christians are not God, what right or authority do they have to immediately judge you? Judging is God’s job, not ours.
@loudman12 - There are many Christians are so hung up with religiosity instead of a relationship with Christ that they judge others based upon rules and regulations (appearances and performance) instead of loving others as God would. Just remember the OT was written to Israel, for Israel and the NT was written to Christians, for Christians.
@loudman12 - So, the possible reason that you have difficulty understanding the bible is because it was written to believers, for believers. Therefore, since you are not a believer, it was not meant for you to understand. How can you, being an atheist, possibly relate? Unfortunately, you cannot. Therefore, my advice is to stop reading the bible and seek out a pastor to speak with so he can share the gospel with you, one on one, face to face, mouth to ear.
@MartyJSwizzle I dont have any problem understanding the bible, as unlike believers I dont justify the silly stories in the bible. Pastor or none there is no way that he can justify slavery, genocide, rape, infantiside, etc.... If as a atheist I dont understand this, then I am glad, there is no room in my heart for hate for anyone in this world. Your bible preaches hate aganist another so I consider myself lucky.
loudman12
@loudman12 - You see, this is the problem. No one is justifying slavery. The bible doesn’t even justify slavery! Where is the world did you get such a frigg’n stupid idea? Just because it’s mentioned in the bible doesn’t mean that it’s justified. The bible does not justify rape, infanticide or genocide either.
@loudman12 - This is the whole problem with atheists and the bible. You’re not trying to understand. The OT slavery mentioned in the bible is NOT the same kind of slavery that was inflicted upon the blacks in America. Slavery in Israel was voluntary. It’s nothing like the slavery of the blacks. Context, context, context.
@MartyJSwizzle I have complete respect for people and their opinions, we are all entitled to them. I accept some atheists are itolerent and dogmatic as well, the knife cuts both ways. I respect you feel no one should go to hell but as you say "God makes the rules". I plan to live my life on the morals my parrents installed in me from an early age. When I die then the truth will be there. If there is a heaven and I have to be judged then if the god you follow is love and peace, I hope he will
@loudman12 judge me on the actions of my life and what was in my heart at the time. I would like to think that though I am not of faith that my intention in life was good. I personally believe that the thought I am born already in sin for actions not in my control 2000 years ago is wrong.
@loudman12 - The bible does not preach hate. Where does it preach hate? Where does it say in the bible that it’s okay to hate people? Where does the bible preach that it’s okay to commit genocide or infanticide? Just because its mentioned in a story does not mean that it’s justified.
Farewell, my atheist friend. I hope you come to your senses before you die.
MartyJSwizzle = Christian
loudman12 = Atheist
@MartyJSwizzle - I see so by your logic God creates a person knowing if they are evil. My next point then will be by your logic, rapists’ murderers and pedophiles are allowed to continue these acts until judgment day. 1) why would god allow them to be created knowing this? 2. What about the innocent people who even though god knew ahead of time will suffer? 3. Why does not god punish them there and then??? he didn’t have a problem killing every body during the BIG FLOOD!!!!! - loudman12
@loudman12 - omg, really? Serious? You guys just don't get it do ya? I am a Christian, we will never agree....ever! I am with Christ and I belong to Him and to Him alone. All this talk about why this and why that, is useless. You guys will never understand. Let's just agree to disagree. See ya on the other side. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle I also notice that you did not actually answer my question ummmm what a surprise, either change the subject or rabble about Jesus Christ, well I give you credit at least you stay true to the same tactic. "you guys will never understand" oh but your wrong we do understand, that’s why we atheists cause unlike you we choose to think not become another religious sheep. £See ya on the other side ??? is this the best you can do sigh!!!!
@loudman12 – I am ignoring your derision and sarcasm. Why would God allow rapists, murderers and pedophiles to be created knowing that they will be evil and will continue until Judgment Day? The main reason is because God is merciful. You are a sinner as well, even though you may have not physically murdered someone, you are still guilty of the same crimes against God because you have been angry at someone.
@loudman12 - According to God’s standards, if you have been angry at someone, you might as well have murdered them because you have already committed murder in your heart against them. The same goes for rapist and pedophiles.
@loudman12 - I am not suggesting that you are a rapist, murderer or pedophile. I am suggesting that according the bible, if you have broken only one of the standards (Ten Commandments) that God holds as being righteous in His sight, then you might as well have broken them all. God wants men to repent and turn away from their sins and turn to Him.
@loudman12 - God desires to have a personal relationship with Him by putting their trust and faith in Him for salvation from God’s wrath that will be poured upon the unbelieving and wicked in the end days. Because of Christ, all God’s wrath from the OT was poured upon Jesus. Thus, for a time, God ignores people’s sins in hopes they will repent and turn to Him for a relationship.
@loudman12 - What about the innocent people, who even though God knew ahead of time, will suffer? People will always suffer, not always from evil men who do them harm but from the natural human condition that is in us all. None of us are immune. It is a terrible tragedy that people have to endure pain and suffering in this lifetime. However, I believe the reason God allows it to happen is to show men that they really do need Him.
@loudman12 - Only God can rescue the worst murderers and the world’s most evil men by transforming their hearts from evil to good. However, God can only do that if they are willing to change; most are not willing to give in to God because of their pride. There are many examples in the bible.
@loudman12 - Why does not God punish them there and then? The reason God doesn’t punish the evil people immediately is because God desires none to perish and wants all men to turn away from their evil ways and be restored. That’s why God is called merciful.
@loudman12 - The reason that God flooded the earth is written in the bible. Anyone can read it and find the answer. However, since most atheists neglect to do the research on their own, I will give the answer to you. Genesis 6:11-12. Also, if you go back a few weeks on this post, I already fully covered this topic.
@loudman12 - There, you have my answers. They are MY answers as I understand them. I know you will disagree, that’s okay but don’t tell me I’m wrong, even though privately you think I am wrong. I am not telling you that you are wrong in your atheism beliefs. Now, privately I believe that you are wrong but I’m not going to argue about it and try to prove things for the sake of disagreement because it does no good to bicker back and forth; it only ends in bitterness.
@loudman12 - I am simply defending the false accusations made against my religion by people who do not really know the other side of the coin (perspective). When I defend the false claims, I am trying to shed light upon what and why we believe. Are we wrong? Maybe, but it’s not your place to say so. It’s better to simply try and understand each other’s perspectives and learn from them even though we disagree.
@MartyJSwizzle Excuse me I do know the religion and the bible, I have studied both the old and new testiment and hebrew scriptures so I am pretty clued on to what is said. False claims, we are simply quoting your bible to you what is in there.
@loudman12 - Obviously, you don't know about the bible because if you did, you wouldn't be asking me stupid questions about the bible that you yourself can find the answer to!
Why do you have to quote the bible to me, I know the bible; it's my religion, not yours!
Go bother someone else. - loudman12
@MartyJSwizzle 1. Again the same assertion that atheists dont know. I was a former chrisitan so I know the story of the flood, that story has no factual evidence apart from the bible.
@loudman12 - This is no assertion, you don't know; that's why you are ignorant of everything I'm telling you. Concerning the Flood, regardless of "factual" information, it's written as is. Stop the arguing.
How can you argue with what's written? Believe or not my friend, it's your choice. Personally, I could care less whether you do or not.
@MartyJSwizzle Oh my god I had to read this one over a few times to try and make sense of this.You have done a better job then I have done ever "GOD DESIRES NONE TO PERISH" again factually wrong there are many stories which has god in the first person tell people to kill other people, the flood, sacking of cities and the killing of the inhabidants so again fail!!!
@loudman12 - Okay, obviously I am dealing with a child or someone who is disinterested in intelligent human conversation. Didn't I just get through telling you that in the OT, God judged people immediately and then because of Christ, God poured His judgment out upon Jesus? Therefore, God no longer judges people immediately but only until after the end of time. You have to consider the OT versus the NT, there are reasons why God changed his method of dealing with people. Stop the ignorance.
@MartyJSwizzle "ignorant of everything im telling you" no its simply i am not another religious automaton who spouts crap!!! and believes in a set of beliefs that were founded in bronze age
@loudman12 - I am not a robot. I consciously chose to follow Christ on my own and I chose to believe. The same can be said for everyone with a belief system. Atheists are not immune. I wasn’t the one who started this conversation, you did. And, what I believe is no more crap than what you believe; besides, that’s you’re opinion and opinions hold no authority. Stop the ignorance.
@loudman12 - Yes, if you weren’t ignorant of everything I was telling you, then you wouldn’t have asked me questions about the bible when you already claimed to be an ex-Christian. Again, why are you still arguing with me? Didn’t I just ask you, “How can you argue with what's written? Believe or not my friend, it's your choice.” I can care less what you believe; why does it bother you what I believe? Stop the arguing.
@MartyJSwizzle oh also it will be rather funny when we all eventually die and then for example the islamic religion is the correct one and you will go to hell for not believing in mohammed lol the irony there
@loudman12 - If I die and find out that Islam was the “right” religion all along, I wouldn’t care. Why? I am losing nothing by loving God and loving people. I lived a good life and raised my children right to respect people, to love people and forgive people. So what if I worshipped God? Why does it bother you so much what I believe? It’s none of your damn business anyway. Stop the Hate.
@MartyJSwizzle Hey I dont hate I suggest you look at my You Tube page and actually read the description of me. If you choose to believe then cool no problems of that I will defend any persons right to have a faith even though I do not believe in it myself. What I take issue is your position that Because #i am no longer a chrisitian, your position I cant understand the bible. When I read the bible many times and found some quite frankly stupid stories contained within it, I was told "You Have to
loudman12 1
it the right way" I am sorry but I read things for what is stated in there. I have been told many times by believers I will burn in hell for not believing in jesus. I have no doubt that you have brought your children up to be kind etc.... I do not presume to judge. However do you think it is right for people who choose not to believe in god to be called this???. I have never broken a law, I have always ppaid my taxes, and treated people right. Does this make me a bad person??
@loudman12 - Ok, I will go and read your profile description and it’s good to know that you respect other people’s beliefs. There is some truth to reading the bible; when anyone reads the bible, it must be read “in context.” In other words, you cannot take something from the OT law and apply it to the NT. They are different in their applications. The OT was written to Israel, for Israel. However, some basic principles are universally applicable.
@loudman12 - Furthermore, Christians are not subject to the OT law even though some OT basic principles may still apply. Example, when the OT says that Israel shall eat no shellfish, that doesn’t mean that NT Christians can’t eat shellfish. However, some basic principles are universally applicable.
@loudman12 - Unlike the OT, Christians have no rules except to love one another and love God. There are no other rules. Christians have full freedom. This doesn’t mean that it is acceptable to continue in sin; it means we should seek daily to turn away from the fleshly desires and seek what pleases God. Being a Christian is not easy. It is a daily struggle.
@loudman12 - I have no doubt that you are probably a good person. Most people are good people. However, I did not write the bible, God did (of course, through prophets). I am only a messenger and a believer in God. How can I call myself a Christian and not believe in God’s Word? Would that make me a good Christian or a poor example?
@loudman12 - There is a teaching in the bible that states that people who have never heard the gospel of Christ will be judged based upon their consciences. There is also a teaching that states that people, who have heard the gospel but reject it, will go to hell. Remember, I did not write the bible, so how can you get mad at me? I am only a messenger and a believer in Christ. I knew Christ before I knew His Word. If it were up to me, I would let everyone into heaven but I am not God.
@loudman12 - Therefore, since God made the rules, how can Christians be blamed for believing that atheist will go to hell? If I believe in Christ, how can I not believe in the bible? Personally, I don’t think it is right for a Christian to tell you that you are going to hell or treat you poorly. Since, Christians are not God, what right or authority do they have to immediately judge you? Judging is God’s job, not ours.
@loudman12 - There are many Christians are so hung up with religiosity instead of a relationship with Christ that they judge others based upon rules and regulations (appearances and performance) instead of loving others as God would. Just remember the OT was written to Israel, for Israel and the NT was written to Christians, for Christians.
@loudman12 - So, the possible reason that you have difficulty understanding the bible is because it was written to believers, for believers. Therefore, since you are not a believer, it was not meant for you to understand. How can you, being an atheist, possibly relate? Unfortunately, you cannot. Therefore, my advice is to stop reading the bible and seek out a pastor to speak with so he can share the gospel with you, one on one, face to face, mouth to ear.
@MartyJSwizzle I dont have any problem understanding the bible, as unlike believers I dont justify the silly stories in the bible. Pastor or none there is no way that he can justify slavery, genocide, rape, infantiside, etc.... If as a atheist I dont understand this, then I am glad, there is no room in my heart for hate for anyone in this world. Your bible preaches hate aganist another so I consider myself lucky.
loudman12
@loudman12 - You see, this is the problem. No one is justifying slavery. The bible doesn’t even justify slavery! Where is the world did you get such a frigg’n stupid idea? Just because it’s mentioned in the bible doesn’t mean that it’s justified. The bible does not justify rape, infanticide or genocide either.
@loudman12 - This is the whole problem with atheists and the bible. You’re not trying to understand. The OT slavery mentioned in the bible is NOT the same kind of slavery that was inflicted upon the blacks in America. Slavery in Israel was voluntary. It’s nothing like the slavery of the blacks. Context, context, context.
@MartyJSwizzle I have complete respect for people and their opinions, we are all entitled to them. I accept some atheists are itolerent and dogmatic as well, the knife cuts both ways. I respect you feel no one should go to hell but as you say "God makes the rules". I plan to live my life on the morals my parrents installed in me from an early age. When I die then the truth will be there. If there is a heaven and I have to be judged then if the god you follow is love and peace, I hope he will
@loudman12 judge me on the actions of my life and what was in my heart at the time. I would like to think that though I am not of faith that my intention in life was good. I personally believe that the thought I am born already in sin for actions not in my control 2000 years ago is wrong.
@loudman12 - The bible does not preach hate. Where does it preach hate? Where does it say in the bible that it’s okay to hate people? Where does the bible preach that it’s okay to commit genocide or infanticide? Just because its mentioned in a story does not mean that it’s justified.
Farewell, my atheist friend. I hope you come to your senses before you die.
Monday, February 7, 2011
Unfathomable Expectations
It’s my faith. It is my evidence for the invisible. The confidence for what I know to be true. It’s my assurance for the unknown ahead of me. It is my faith.
Mountains are thrown into the ocean. Trees are uprooted and tossed into the sea. Do you want it? Listen to me. Can you grasp it?
Train your ears to what I have to say. Can you hear me? Take this to heart. Do you want it? Let it sink into your soul.
Ask and it shall be given.
Faith comes by hearing what God has to say. He is speaking to you this very moment. Listen to me and hang on to my every word, my every word.
Train your ears to what I say. Can you hear me? Take this to heart. Do you want it? Let it sink into your soul.
Mountains are thrown into the ocean. Trees are uprooted and tossed into the sea. Do you want it? Listen to me. Can you grasp it?
Train your ears to what I have to say. Can you hear me? Take this to heart. Do you want it? Let it sink into your soul.
Ask and it shall be given.
Faith comes by hearing what God has to say. He is speaking to you this very moment. Listen to me and hang on to my every word, my every word.
Train your ears to what I say. Can you hear me? Take this to heart. Do you want it? Let it sink into your soul.
Friday, February 4, 2011
Trebuchet
Your mind is like a fortress. It’s Impenetrable. You have settled on your thoughts. Why can’t I get through? Barriers block the way. You built them.
You sought your own way and became your own god. You will not beg. You will not bow. There’s no bending your knees. Why do you resist me?
You will not make it to where I am by yourself. It is a law that cannot be broken, even by me. My word is good. My word is just and true. I cannot lie.
Go ahead, poke fun at me. Persecute me to your hearts desire. Make jokes about me all of your days. Tell them that I am dead. Regret.
We will see who has the last words. Are you ready for me? Do you really want to chance it? I’m giving you fair warning. You still have time. C’mon, make it count. Don’t miss the mark.
You sought your own way and became your own god. You will not beg. You will not bow. There’s no bending your knees. Why do you resist me?
You will not make it to where I am by yourself. It is a law that cannot be broken, even by me. My word is good. My word is just and true. I cannot lie.
Go ahead, poke fun at me. Persecute me to your hearts desire. Make jokes about me all of your days. Tell them that I am dead. Regret.
We will see who has the last words. Are you ready for me? Do you really want to chance it? I’m giving you fair warning. You still have time. C’mon, make it count. Don’t miss the mark.
Thursday, February 3, 2011
Intentional Atheism
The following is an online conversation I had with one of my friends on Facebook. I am Jason and Gabriel is my friend. Gabriel had the following status:
Gabriel – “Atheism isn't in direct opposition to Christianity (Christianity is but one in thousands of 'theisms')... Its apposed to Theism, but Atheists like to aim there contempt towards Christianity because it demands the most from them, pride.”
Jason @Gabriel - “Christianity demands humility and servitude, which atheists are devoid of. Just wait, I'll prove it.
Brad - You think atheists in a society composed of mostly buddhists or muslims or mormans would still focus on the few christians? Or are you saying christianity breeds atheism?
Jason @Brad - autonomism breeds atheism.
Andrew @ Jason – “I like you man so please do not side with this comment, it is so outrageous i don't even know where to start. I am not an atheist and I don't mean to be blunt but I cannot sit by and watch as an uneducated radical slanders an entire community based solely on the fact that they disagree with what he was raised to believe in.”
Jason @Andrew – “I know you are an agnostic. My aim is not at you.”
Andrew @Jason – “Ya but just because I am not the target doesn't mean I am not disturbed by this. Even more that people "like" it.”
Jason @Andrew – “Yeah, I can see that. However, coming from the Christian point of view, I can see that Atheists "aim" towards Christianity. Why? because of who we are and what we believe. It's all a matter of tolerance. Christianity should have an unlimited tolerance towards others, who can compare?”
Brad @Jason – “It seems like atheists aim at christians because christians are the majority in our part of the world.”
Jason – “If it wasn't pride that didn't feed the Atheists; then they would never comment ever again on this topic. Unfortunately, that's too much to ask.”
Brad – “I think alot of atheists probably think it is cool or mysterious to not believe in god. Alot of them really believe the world would be better if there was nothing to fight over like that. Something that so many can passionately believe in and kill for but no one can prove. Its likely any atheist any of us have had a discussion with is as young in their beliefs as many of us are about ours.”
Jason – “And, it goes on and on...”
Brad – “I’m not an atheist.”
Jason – “Thats ok Brad, nobody's perfect.”
Jordan - @Jason - "If it wasn't pride that didn't feed the Atheists; then they would never comment ever again on this topic. Unfortunately, that's too much to ask." So wait, Atheists aren't allowed to defend themselves? Defense is prideful?”
Jason @Jordan - “No, humility is the mouth of the martyr, which is a trait of those who are under attack for their belief in God. Pride is in the mouth of the arrogant, who do not know God and only believe in themselves.”
Gabriel – “Would anyone not agree that my first statement in the status is true though? I always see Atheism attacking Christianity, or Atheism vs Christianity. Shouldn't it be Atheism vs Theism? Atheists focus so much on proving Christianity wrong... why not all the other gods? It seems to be like blood in the water for Atheists when you mention the God of the Bible. And Hes the only one out there that offers complete forgiveness AND adoption. And Jesus laid down the two most important rules for a 'real-christian' to follow, Love God and Love people... if one truly does this, what is so threatening and insulting?
Not to mention claiming the position/title of Atheism is self defeating... no one can claim such an absolute statement like that. the word "atheism" does not say, "i believe all gods are false" (that would mean you would have to believe that one is, the opposite of false is true and the only way to know something is false is to know the truth), or even, "i do not believe in god" (believe is an opinion, a worldview, a religion), but "there absolutely is not and cannot be a god" (that is what the Latin word "atheism" means. Would it be so terribly humble to admit that one is an agnostic, i could respect that alot more.”
Jason @Gabriel - Yes, Gabe. To make an absolute claim proves absolute truth.
Psalm 14:1 "The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
Then I get a private message sent from someone named Daniel:
“I don't know you at all. I am not an Atheist. I am a Christian. However, you need to check your mouth, and stop giving Christians a bad name.
"Christianity demands humility and servitude, which atheists are devoid of. Just wait, I'll prove it."
I suggest you do so, because as far as I'm concerned, "humility" does not consist of making generalizations about a large group of people.
"Christianity should have an unlimited tolerance towards others, who can compare?"
Try it, hypocrite. Tolerance does not consist of calling out people of other beliefs on the internet.
"If it wasn't pride that didn't feed the Atheists; then they would never comment ever again on this topic. Unfortunately, that's too much to ask."
Again, hypocrisy. You think you're serving God by saying such foolish, close-minded things? This isn't some cosmic wrestling match. This is you intentional pushing people away from our God, something you will be accountable for when you die.
"Psalm 14:1 "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'"
Scripture doesn't count in an argument with someone who doesn't believe in Scripture. Try open-mindedness, that might work a little better.
Anyhow, you are not a messenger of the word of God. You are a condescending bigot that will do much to prove what some Atheists believe: That we Christians are unintelligent and close-minded.”
Then Daniel sends a second private message with only this:
“intentionally*”
My replay is “Yes Daniel, you don’t know me.”
The thing that Daniel doesn't realize is that everything he was accusing me of, he was doing to me. Daniel called me a "hypocrite," twice. He said I was making a generalized judgment about a group of people but Daniel thought it was acceptable to make a personal judgment about me based upon a few sentences I wrote. The thing Daniel doesn't understand is why and from what perspective were my statements coming from. So, based upon a few of my statements and without understanding my perspectives or point of views, Daniel has come to the conclusion that:
1. I am a hypocrite
2. I lack humility
3. I am not a messenger of God
4. I am condescending
5. I am a bigot
6. I am close-minded
7. I am intolerant
8. I am unintelligent
Who looks like the hypocrite now?
Gabriel – “Atheism isn't in direct opposition to Christianity (Christianity is but one in thousands of 'theisms')... Its apposed to Theism, but Atheists like to aim there contempt towards Christianity because it demands the most from them, pride.”
Jason @Gabriel - “Christianity demands humility and servitude, which atheists are devoid of. Just wait, I'll prove it.
Brad - You think atheists in a society composed of mostly buddhists or muslims or mormans would still focus on the few christians? Or are you saying christianity breeds atheism?
Jason @Brad - autonomism breeds atheism.
Andrew @ Jason – “I like you man so please do not side with this comment, it is so outrageous i don't even know where to start. I am not an atheist and I don't mean to be blunt but I cannot sit by and watch as an uneducated radical slanders an entire community based solely on the fact that they disagree with what he was raised to believe in.”
Jason @Andrew – “I know you are an agnostic. My aim is not at you.”
Andrew @Jason – “Ya but just because I am not the target doesn't mean I am not disturbed by this. Even more that people "like" it.”
Jason @Andrew – “Yeah, I can see that. However, coming from the Christian point of view, I can see that Atheists "aim" towards Christianity. Why? because of who we are and what we believe. It's all a matter of tolerance. Christianity should have an unlimited tolerance towards others, who can compare?”
Brad @Jason – “It seems like atheists aim at christians because christians are the majority in our part of the world.”
Jason – “If it wasn't pride that didn't feed the Atheists; then they would never comment ever again on this topic. Unfortunately, that's too much to ask.”
Brad – “I think alot of atheists probably think it is cool or mysterious to not believe in god. Alot of them really believe the world would be better if there was nothing to fight over like that. Something that so many can passionately believe in and kill for but no one can prove. Its likely any atheist any of us have had a discussion with is as young in their beliefs as many of us are about ours.”
Jason – “And, it goes on and on...”
Brad – “I’m not an atheist.”
Jason – “Thats ok Brad, nobody's perfect.”
Jordan - @Jason - "If it wasn't pride that didn't feed the Atheists; then they would never comment ever again on this topic. Unfortunately, that's too much to ask." So wait, Atheists aren't allowed to defend themselves? Defense is prideful?”
Jason @Jordan - “No, humility is the mouth of the martyr, which is a trait of those who are under attack for their belief in God. Pride is in the mouth of the arrogant, who do not know God and only believe in themselves.”
Gabriel – “Would anyone not agree that my first statement in the status is true though? I always see Atheism attacking Christianity, or Atheism vs Christianity. Shouldn't it be Atheism vs Theism? Atheists focus so much on proving Christianity wrong... why not all the other gods? It seems to be like blood in the water for Atheists when you mention the God of the Bible. And Hes the only one out there that offers complete forgiveness AND adoption. And Jesus laid down the two most important rules for a 'real-christian' to follow, Love God and Love people... if one truly does this, what is so threatening and insulting?
Not to mention claiming the position/title of Atheism is self defeating... no one can claim such an absolute statement like that. the word "atheism" does not say, "i believe all gods are false" (that would mean you would have to believe that one is, the opposite of false is true and the only way to know something is false is to know the truth), or even, "i do not believe in god" (believe is an opinion, a worldview, a religion), but "there absolutely is not and cannot be a god" (that is what the Latin word "atheism" means. Would it be so terribly humble to admit that one is an agnostic, i could respect that alot more.”
Jason @Gabriel - Yes, Gabe. To make an absolute claim proves absolute truth.
Psalm 14:1 "The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
Then I get a private message sent from someone named Daniel:
“I don't know you at all. I am not an Atheist. I am a Christian. However, you need to check your mouth, and stop giving Christians a bad name.
"Christianity demands humility and servitude, which atheists are devoid of. Just wait, I'll prove it."
I suggest you do so, because as far as I'm concerned, "humility" does not consist of making generalizations about a large group of people.
"Christianity should have an unlimited tolerance towards others, who can compare?"
Try it, hypocrite. Tolerance does not consist of calling out people of other beliefs on the internet.
"If it wasn't pride that didn't feed the Atheists; then they would never comment ever again on this topic. Unfortunately, that's too much to ask."
Again, hypocrisy. You think you're serving God by saying such foolish, close-minded things? This isn't some cosmic wrestling match. This is you intentional pushing people away from our God, something you will be accountable for when you die.
"Psalm 14:1 "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'"
Scripture doesn't count in an argument with someone who doesn't believe in Scripture. Try open-mindedness, that might work a little better.
Anyhow, you are not a messenger of the word of God. You are a condescending bigot that will do much to prove what some Atheists believe: That we Christians are unintelligent and close-minded.”
Then Daniel sends a second private message with only this:
“intentionally*”
My replay is “Yes Daniel, you don’t know me.”
The thing that Daniel doesn't realize is that everything he was accusing me of, he was doing to me. Daniel called me a "hypocrite," twice. He said I was making a generalized judgment about a group of people but Daniel thought it was acceptable to make a personal judgment about me based upon a few sentences I wrote. The thing Daniel doesn't understand is why and from what perspective were my statements coming from. So, based upon a few of my statements and without understanding my perspectives or point of views, Daniel has come to the conclusion that:
1. I am a hypocrite
2. I lack humility
3. I am not a messenger of God
4. I am condescending
5. I am a bigot
6. I am close-minded
7. I am intolerant
8. I am unintelligent
Who looks like the hypocrite now?
Monday, January 31, 2011
Biblical Guide to the Drums and Christian Rock Music
With all the many references to musical instruments found in the bible, there is one instrument that is the most important; that is, the “drum.” Anyone who claims that drums were not mentioned or used in the bible, are absolutely clueless and their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.
Unfortunately, you will not find the word “drum” in the bible but you will find a drum-like, percussion instrument called a “timbrel.” The best description of a timbrel (sometimes referred as tambour) is a hand-drum with miniature cymbals around the edges; it is covered on one side with parchment, cloth or animal skin. It’s held in one hand and “beat” (to smite) with the other hand to keep the tempo during praise and worship in the Old Testament.
"The drum (toph). Of this there were many varieties, some of them resembling modern drums. The Egyptians had a long drum, of wood or copper, 2½ feet long, resembling the tom-tom of India, and beaten by the hand. Another form was shaped like a cask with bulging centre, and was made of copper. It was of the same length as the other, but larger around, and was beaten with sticks. Another drum was more like our kettle-drum; and one of these, the rabbins say, was placed in the temple court to call the priests to prayer, and could be heard from Jerusalem to Jericho." ~ (William Smith; revised and edited by F.N. and M.A. Peloubet, Smith’s Bible dictionary [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997.)
The reason that the word “drum” was not found in the bible is because the first modern-day version of the drum wasn’t common until around the 1540’s A.D.
About 4000 years ago, these instruments were not called “drums,” they had different names but had the same basic purpose and function. Just as dinosaurs in the bible were once called dragons, behemoth and Leviathan; nowadays, the timbrel, tabret and Toph (drum) are now called percussion, drum or tambourine.
To be more specific about this ancient percussion instrument, this hand-drum named timbrel (or tophet in Hebrew), we must remember that drums, just like any other musical instrument, started simple then evolved (for the lack of a better definition) into other complex instruments. It only makes common sense that as percussion instruments progress, so does the music that changes along with it. Furthermore, when electricity was finally discovered and commonly used, it opened new doors for new instruments, new sounds and techniques and new styles of music. Many pipe organs and pianos in churches use electricity as well. If anyone tells you that electricity is from the devil, they are ignorant because the bible says that God created all things; even electricity in the form of lightning.
"A percussion instrument that was carried and beaten by hand. Considered inappropriate for the Temple, it was probably played primarily by women (Ps. 68:25). The timbrel may have been excluded from the Temple instruments because of its great popularity with the Canaanite fertility cults. Among the Hebrew people, it was associated with merrymaking and processions (Gen. 31:27). Remnants of timbrels with pieces of bronze inserted in the rim have been uncovered by archaeologists. Thus, the instrument could be shaken as well as beaten." ~ (Youngblood, Ronald F., General Editor; F.F. Bruce and R.K. Harrison, Consulting Editors, Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Dictionary, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1995.)
"The timbrel, a form of tambourine, a narrow hoop covered with a tightened skin, and struck with the hand. On the Egyptian monuments are three kinds—the circular, the square, and another formed by two squares separated by a bar." ~ (William Smith; revised and edited by F.N. and M.A. Peloubet, Smith’s Bible dictionary [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997.)
Thus, the Israelites used the timbrel to keep the tempo; or as some would say to keep the “beat.” (From a personal perspective, anyone using the term “beat” in place of the proper musical term “tempo,” has little or absolutely no knowledge of musical insight and I wouldn’t trust anything they have to say about music anyway; it’s like taking marriage advice from a counselor who has been divorced three times.)
Are not the modern-day tambourine and the modern-day drum, a percussion instrument? They are both used to keep the tempo, both hit with hand or stick and both used to make music. Just because the Israelites started off with a few light-percussion instruments doesn’t mean that today’s Christians cannot use more complex and better-sounding percussion instruments. There is no Scripture to stop this from happening.
The modern “drum-set” is now the upgrade from the earliest hand-held timbrel. The modern-day drum-set is the contemporary version of the ancient timbrel and the drum-set is used in many musical praise and worship bands. Just as church members have moved forward from having small group church services in people’s homes in the 1st century to an off-site community church building in the 21st century, so has the percussion of the Old Testament moved from a small hand-held drum used by ancient Hebrews to the modern-day drum-sets of today’s church bands. There is nothing wrong with this!
Where does it specifically say in Scripture that music or drums are fleshly?
Where does it specifically say in Scripture that music or drums are evil?
Where does it specifically say in Scripture that music or drums of the world?
Where does it specifically say in Scripture that music or drums are sinful?
Where does it specifically say in Scripture that music or drums from the devil?
It doesn’t, as we will see further on.
The timbrel was the one of the principle percussion instruments for the Israelites. It was very similar to the modern-day tambourine. Eventually, over thousands of years the timbrel has easily evolved into the modern-day tambourine. Even most modern English translations of the bible today have substituted the word timbrel as a “tambourine” even though the timbrel was entirely a different kind of percussion instrument.
The word timbrel is “used in the Old Testament in both singular and plural form, so as to suggest that the former referred to a hoop of wood or metal over which was stretched a parchment head; while the plural was perhaps used to designate the tambourine with bells or jangles fixed at intervals in hoops (wikipedia, timbrel).”
When David encouraged the Israelites to praise God, he said, “Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp (Psalm 149:3, KJV).” Why would anyone praise God with dancing, along with music, without keeping some sort of tempo? Being a drummer and percussionist myself, I can understand that the timbrel must have kept the time (tempo) in order for everyone to sing along and dance in unison. Have you ever tried to dance and sing without some sort of tempo or rhythm? It’s a musical train wreck, especially if there are hundreds of people and half of them lack musical talent or singing skills.
Evidently, the Psalmist (David) did not specify at what the tempo the psalm was to be played but I would assume that the God wanted us Christians to understand through His Word that the tempo was important but more relevant was the message in the song. I believe that’s why God allowed the lyrics of David’s Psalms to be written down as words and not as music notes. In other words, play all the music you want, but without words, the song is meaningless. Of course, it’s only meaningless unless there’s something else to accompany it, such as dancing before the Lord, expressing joy from your heart and in celebration and praise to God for the wonderful things He has done.
I believe that God made sure to include the timbrel in His Word because God is not the author of confusion; praise and worship music must be orderly and in sync. In the Old Testament, Israel praised the Lord with various stringed-instruments, dancing, singing, shouting and playing the timbrel and other percussion instruments. From the descriptions given of all these multiple instruments, it almost sounds as if there were large groups of musicians praising God; kind of like a Christian Rock band.
The world, from every nation, tribe and tongue has taken something beautiful, like music that comes from God, and put their own spin on it and has used it for evil, cultic rituals and for their own selfish benefits. Drums, in and of them, are not evil. Would you say that tents are evil without a reason to make them evil? How about tent-makers? Are tent-makers evil because they make “evil” tents to cover the witches who perform black Sabbaths in the desert?
The Apostle Paul was a tent-maker, is Paul and evil man or a righteous man declared by Christ? Obviously, Paul was a righteous man even though he made and crafted tents. Perhaps later on, an evil man with evil motives came into the local tent shop where Paul’s tent had been placed on consignment. Is the tent evil? Was Paul evil for making the tent?
No, tents are no more evil than drums are. Drums are merely a musical instrument that is used to keep the tempo of a song. What man decides to use drums for, is his business. However, for me and my family, I will use drums for the Lord just as the Israelites did when praising God. In the end it’s all a matter of the heart!
Every nation, culture, tribe and person has their own idea as to the history of and the origin of, the modern-day “drum.” Unfortunately, we cannot rely on the opinions, traditions and philosophies of men whether they are true or not; for Christians the Scriptures must be our standard and our guide for true biblical praise and worship music.
Colossians 2:8 - “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ (KJV).”
True worship does not come from the “beat” or tempo, the rhythm, the sound or even from the words or lyrics; true worship comes from having the right attitude in your heart. Words can be empty and meaningless unless the right motive of the heart is involved. Music, along with drums, a catchy melody and a repeating rhythm with lyrics are merely a tool; or a vehicle that helps us to get there. Music is merely the means by which we are ushered into acceptable praise and worship.
When God looks at our worship, is He worried that we are worshipping Him with a tempo? When we are praising God, is He looking down saying, “Those worshippers are using drums to worship me with. I do not accept the worship from them.” Is God concerned that we are using a medium to accompany us in our heart-felt worship? If our praise and worship is from the heart with having the right attitude, does it really matter the tempo or “beat” (I really hate that word) in which our songs are kept?
John 4:23, 24 – “But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth (NLT).”
Did you see that? “True worshippers” worship God in “spirit and truth,” not by the “beat” or tempo. In other words, the music, tempo, drums and the “beat” are irrelevant! Why? Because it is the heart (attitude, motive) of the worshipper that God sees; not the style, beat, rhythm, or tempo of the music. Again, the music is only a “vehicle” to help us get there. There are probably thousands of people who attempt to worship God every Sunday morning with pipe organs and pianos that do not have a heart for worship. Does God hear the music or “beat” over the hearts of worship? What God is looking for, is people who worship Him in spirit and truth; the drums along with the music are merely a means by which we are led into praise and worship.
Some people may say, “Since when does something become Christian by merely "Christianizing" the terminology and placing Christ’s name in front of it? How about the Roman cross that was used to kill the worst of criminals in Rome? It was a torture device now it’s a holy icon, seen in practically every church building in the world & hanging around millions of Christian necks as a sign of their faith. It was originally Roman (pagan, heathen) in its history, now it’s Christian.
How about baptism? Why did Jesus use baptism in his day? It’s because the people knew what it was. In some pagan rituals, people would be baptized in bull’s blood as a symbol of eternal life. Others used water as a symbol of purification. In Judaism, it was a familiar practice for new converts. It was pagan and heathen, now it’s Christian.
Since God can use the things of the world to honor Him, such as the Roman method of torture and baptismal pagan bull’s blood practice, why wouldn’t God want Christians to take back what was originally ours to glorify Him with? That is, music; which includes drums, stringed instruments, wonderful words and other various instruments!
Another percussion instrument that God chose the Israelites to use during praise and worship was the tabret. How do I know that the tabret was not just a tambourine and more of a drum-like instrument?
Nahum 2:6-7 “The gates of the rivers shall be opened, and the palace shall be dissolved. And Huzzab shall be led away captive, she shall be brought up, and her maids shall lead her as with the voice of doves, tabering upon their breasts (KJV).”
• Easton's Bible Dictionary says that tabering is like “playing on a small drum or tabret. In Nahum 2:7, where alone it occurs, it means beating on the breast, as players beat on the tabret.”
• In Smith's Bible Dictionary tabering “connects itself with toph, "a timbrel”…the "tabour" or "tabor" was a musical instrument of the drum type which with the pipe formed the band of a country village. To "tabour," accordingly, is to beat with loud strokes, as men beat upon such an instrument.”
• “In Nahum 2:7, where the word "tabering" occurs, it means beating on the breast, as drummers beat on the tabret.” – (Wikipedia, timbrel or tabret)
A “tabret” is a small version of the “Toph” or “Tof.” The term “Tof” implies the word “tophet,” which means to smite, which is how you play the Tof. It is very similar to the medieval tabor drum (or tabour), “which consists of a circular frame of two hoops fitting within one another in which a cloth or animal skin is stretched across to create a small, one-headed or two-sided drum. Since no records, pictures or drawings of tabrets have ever been found, some have come to believe that the tabret is an instrument that is between a tambourine and a modern-day drum.
Originally, the tabor was believed to be a two-sided drum with strings that were strung across one side on a head to create a loud snap. The tabor is believed to be the very first version of the modern-day snare drum. Because of the lack of precise information, in some versions of the Holy Bible, the word tambourine is used in place of tabret and timbrel (Hebrew; Tof), flip-flopped and vice versa.
The tabret was used for:
I. Celebrations
1 Samuel 18:6 – “And it came to pass as they came, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women came out of all cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet king Saul, with tabrets, with joy, and with instruments of musick (KJV).”
II. Prophesying
1 Samuel 10:5 – “After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy: (KJV)”
III. Praise
Psalm 150:4 – “Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs (KJV).”
IV. Worship
Jeremiah 31:4 - Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry (KJV).”
IV. Religious Services
2 Samuel 6:5 – “And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals (KJV).”
1 Chronicles 13:8 - And David and all Israel played before God with all their might, and with singing, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets (KJV).
Psalm 68:25 – “The singers went before, the players on instruments followed after; among them were the damsels playing with timbrels.
Psalm 81:2 – “Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery (KJV).”
Psalm 149:3 – “Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp (KJV).”
All musical instruments that were available to the Israelites, were used to praise the Lord God: The Israelites were not limited to only two instruments, such as in many churches today that consist of a piano and pipe organ alone. If it was acceptable for the Israelites to have huge bands of people playing all kinds of “instruments of musick” during praise and worship, then it’s acceptable for us today’s Christians to do the same. To oppose this idea is legalistic and burdensome. The freedom we have inherited in Christ gives us release from all those rules and regulations of the Old Testament.
2 Chronicles 5:13 – “It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD; (KJV)”
Let’s face it; music really has little to do with praise and worship. As I stated earlier, the musical instruments in a song are merely a means by which we move into our praise and worship. It’s really what comes from the heart that God loves the most. Your motives for praise and worship are worth more to God than having a drummer in the band or a “beat” in the song. Anyone who is worried about having drums in a Christian band or a “beat” to keep the tempo has gotten their priorities in the wrong places. They are more focused upon themselves and the flesh rather than upon the kind worship that pleases God.
Some legalistic and biblically ignorant Christians may say that having drums in a Christian song or Praise and Worship band “feeds” the flesh. The following are a couple of quotes by Christians who have absolutely no clue about using drums in Christian music or what the Scripture say about it:
• “It is the beat which either appeals to the flesh (Rock, Blues) Soul (Classical) or Spirit(Christian).”
• “The lyrics are irrelevant, when the beat is fleshly.”
Just as the word “drum” is not found in the King James Version of the Holy Bible, you will not find the phrase “music feeds the flesh” and you will not find the word “feed, drum, beat or music” associated with the flesh.
The bible says that there are “deeds” of the flesh but there is no mention of anything that “feeds” the flesh. These fleshly deeds are found in Galatians 5:19-23):
• Immorality
• Impurity
• Sensuality
• Idolatry
• Sorcery
• Enmities
• Strife
• Jealousy
• Outbursts of anger
• Disputes
• Dissensions
• Factions
• Envying
• Drunkenness
• Carousing
I have heard that some Christians have even gone as far as to say that Christian music that includes drums, appeal to the flesh. In other words, it is “fleshly.” What does God’s Word have to say about what is “fleshly?”
• 2 Corinthians 1:12 - For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward (KJV).”
• Colossians 2:18 – “Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind (KJV).”
• 1 Peter 2:11 – “Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul (KJV).”
• Ezekiel 16:26 - You also committed harlotry with the Egyptians, your very fleshly neighbors, and increased your acts of harlotry to provoke Me to anger (NKJV).
• Hebrews 7:16 - “…who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life (NKJV).”
• Hebrews 9:10 – “…concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation (NKJV).”
Summery:
1. fleshly wisdom
2. fleshly mind
3. fleshly lusts
4. fleshly neighbors
5. fleshly commandment
6. fleshly ordinances
There we have it; I didn’t see any mention of music, tempo, the “beat” or Rock music as being “fleshly.” As a matter of fact, there are no examples of music or drums “feeding” the flesh either.
As mentioned previously, I really don’t care where the supposed origin of drums came from; I am not using drums for that purpose. Just as God used a Roman cross to save us from our sins, Christian Contemporary Rock bands use drums to write music that glorifies God and it helps us to move into a heart of praise and worship.
Anyone who claims that Christian Rock music is “fleshly” because it includes drums or that Christian Rock music appeals to the flesh, it only expressing their useless opinion! To do do this...is fleshly! Sheesh, what a frigg'n hypocrite. What really happens is that the music moves and carries us into a spirit or attitude of praise and worship. Thus, when this happens we are actually walking and living in the spirit and worshipping God in spirit (attitude) and truth (knowing Christ). Music being fleshly is not found in the Holy Scriptures and making the claim that Christian Rock music that includes drums is fleshly, is unbiblical and a lie. It is man’s opinions alone, nothing more. Do not fear man, but fear God.
Nowadays, some Christians who are ignorant of music theory, biblical music history and what true worship is, would make the claim that Christian music should emphasize the melody, not the “beat.”
Does Christian music emphasize the melody if drums are involved? When you hear a Christian Contemporary/Rock song on the radio, do you remember what the drums did or what the melody is?
For example, when you hear the song “Jesus Saves” by Jeremy Camp, do you hear or remember “boom, pop,(rest) boom, pop, crash, (rest) boom, pop, (rest) boom, pop, crash?” Or, do you remember the chorus, “Sing it out, to let all the world know that Jesus saves. Raise a shout, to let all the world know, that Jesus saves?”
Do you know why you remember the chorus more than the drum beat or the words to the verses? First of all, most people aren’t professional drummers and second, it’s because the chorus is the melody! The melody is the focus in the song and that’s why the chorus is usually played louder than the verses, thus emphasizing the melody and not the “beat.” The drum beat is simply a rhythm that carries the song and keeps the tempo to get us to the melody. The melody is the focus; the “beat” is actually a “back-beat” that keeps the song moving in a forward direction, that always leads us back to the chorus.
One simple guideline for Christian music is that it’s okay to have drums.
Unfortunately, you will not find the word “drum” in the bible but you will find a drum-like, percussion instrument called a “timbrel.” The best description of a timbrel (sometimes referred as tambour) is a hand-drum with miniature cymbals around the edges; it is covered on one side with parchment, cloth or animal skin. It’s held in one hand and “beat” (to smite) with the other hand to keep the tempo during praise and worship in the Old Testament.
"The drum (toph). Of this there were many varieties, some of them resembling modern drums. The Egyptians had a long drum, of wood or copper, 2½ feet long, resembling the tom-tom of India, and beaten by the hand. Another form was shaped like a cask with bulging centre, and was made of copper. It was of the same length as the other, but larger around, and was beaten with sticks. Another drum was more like our kettle-drum; and one of these, the rabbins say, was placed in the temple court to call the priests to prayer, and could be heard from Jerusalem to Jericho." ~ (William Smith; revised and edited by F.N. and M.A. Peloubet, Smith’s Bible dictionary [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997.)
The reason that the word “drum” was not found in the bible is because the first modern-day version of the drum wasn’t common until around the 1540’s A.D.
About 4000 years ago, these instruments were not called “drums,” they had different names but had the same basic purpose and function. Just as dinosaurs in the bible were once called dragons, behemoth and Leviathan; nowadays, the timbrel, tabret and Toph (drum) are now called percussion, drum or tambourine.
To be more specific about this ancient percussion instrument, this hand-drum named timbrel (or tophet in Hebrew), we must remember that drums, just like any other musical instrument, started simple then evolved (for the lack of a better definition) into other complex instruments. It only makes common sense that as percussion instruments progress, so does the music that changes along with it. Furthermore, when electricity was finally discovered and commonly used, it opened new doors for new instruments, new sounds and techniques and new styles of music. Many pipe organs and pianos in churches use electricity as well. If anyone tells you that electricity is from the devil, they are ignorant because the bible says that God created all things; even electricity in the form of lightning.
"A percussion instrument that was carried and beaten by hand. Considered inappropriate for the Temple, it was probably played primarily by women (Ps. 68:25). The timbrel may have been excluded from the Temple instruments because of its great popularity with the Canaanite fertility cults. Among the Hebrew people, it was associated with merrymaking and processions (Gen. 31:27). Remnants of timbrels with pieces of bronze inserted in the rim have been uncovered by archaeologists. Thus, the instrument could be shaken as well as beaten." ~ (Youngblood, Ronald F., General Editor; F.F. Bruce and R.K. Harrison, Consulting Editors, Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Dictionary, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1995.)
"The timbrel, a form of tambourine, a narrow hoop covered with a tightened skin, and struck with the hand. On the Egyptian monuments are three kinds—the circular, the square, and another formed by two squares separated by a bar." ~ (William Smith; revised and edited by F.N. and M.A. Peloubet, Smith’s Bible dictionary [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997.)
Thus, the Israelites used the timbrel to keep the tempo; or as some would say to keep the “beat.” (From a personal perspective, anyone using the term “beat” in place of the proper musical term “tempo,” has little or absolutely no knowledge of musical insight and I wouldn’t trust anything they have to say about music anyway; it’s like taking marriage advice from a counselor who has been divorced three times.)
Are not the modern-day tambourine and the modern-day drum, a percussion instrument? They are both used to keep the tempo, both hit with hand or stick and both used to make music. Just because the Israelites started off with a few light-percussion instruments doesn’t mean that today’s Christians cannot use more complex and better-sounding percussion instruments. There is no Scripture to stop this from happening.
The modern “drum-set” is now the upgrade from the earliest hand-held timbrel. The modern-day drum-set is the contemporary version of the ancient timbrel and the drum-set is used in many musical praise and worship bands. Just as church members have moved forward from having small group church services in people’s homes in the 1st century to an off-site community church building in the 21st century, so has the percussion of the Old Testament moved from a small hand-held drum used by ancient Hebrews to the modern-day drum-sets of today’s church bands. There is nothing wrong with this!
Where does it specifically say in Scripture that music or drums are fleshly?
Where does it specifically say in Scripture that music or drums are evil?
Where does it specifically say in Scripture that music or drums of the world?
Where does it specifically say in Scripture that music or drums are sinful?
Where does it specifically say in Scripture that music or drums from the devil?
It doesn’t, as we will see further on.
The timbrel was the one of the principle percussion instruments for the Israelites. It was very similar to the modern-day tambourine. Eventually, over thousands of years the timbrel has easily evolved into the modern-day tambourine. Even most modern English translations of the bible today have substituted the word timbrel as a “tambourine” even though the timbrel was entirely a different kind of percussion instrument.
The word timbrel is “used in the Old Testament in both singular and plural form, so as to suggest that the former referred to a hoop of wood or metal over which was stretched a parchment head; while the plural was perhaps used to designate the tambourine with bells or jangles fixed at intervals in hoops (wikipedia, timbrel).”
When David encouraged the Israelites to praise God, he said, “Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp (Psalm 149:3, KJV).” Why would anyone praise God with dancing, along with music, without keeping some sort of tempo? Being a drummer and percussionist myself, I can understand that the timbrel must have kept the time (tempo) in order for everyone to sing along and dance in unison. Have you ever tried to dance and sing without some sort of tempo or rhythm? It’s a musical train wreck, especially if there are hundreds of people and half of them lack musical talent or singing skills.
Evidently, the Psalmist (David) did not specify at what the tempo the psalm was to be played but I would assume that the God wanted us Christians to understand through His Word that the tempo was important but more relevant was the message in the song. I believe that’s why God allowed the lyrics of David’s Psalms to be written down as words and not as music notes. In other words, play all the music you want, but without words, the song is meaningless. Of course, it’s only meaningless unless there’s something else to accompany it, such as dancing before the Lord, expressing joy from your heart and in celebration and praise to God for the wonderful things He has done.
I believe that God made sure to include the timbrel in His Word because God is not the author of confusion; praise and worship music must be orderly and in sync. In the Old Testament, Israel praised the Lord with various stringed-instruments, dancing, singing, shouting and playing the timbrel and other percussion instruments. From the descriptions given of all these multiple instruments, it almost sounds as if there were large groups of musicians praising God; kind of like a Christian Rock band.
The world, from every nation, tribe and tongue has taken something beautiful, like music that comes from God, and put their own spin on it and has used it for evil, cultic rituals and for their own selfish benefits. Drums, in and of them, are not evil. Would you say that tents are evil without a reason to make them evil? How about tent-makers? Are tent-makers evil because they make “evil” tents to cover the witches who perform black Sabbaths in the desert?
The Apostle Paul was a tent-maker, is Paul and evil man or a righteous man declared by Christ? Obviously, Paul was a righteous man even though he made and crafted tents. Perhaps later on, an evil man with evil motives came into the local tent shop where Paul’s tent had been placed on consignment. Is the tent evil? Was Paul evil for making the tent?
No, tents are no more evil than drums are. Drums are merely a musical instrument that is used to keep the tempo of a song. What man decides to use drums for, is his business. However, for me and my family, I will use drums for the Lord just as the Israelites did when praising God. In the end it’s all a matter of the heart!
Every nation, culture, tribe and person has their own idea as to the history of and the origin of, the modern-day “drum.” Unfortunately, we cannot rely on the opinions, traditions and philosophies of men whether they are true or not; for Christians the Scriptures must be our standard and our guide for true biblical praise and worship music.
Colossians 2:8 - “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ (KJV).”
True worship does not come from the “beat” or tempo, the rhythm, the sound or even from the words or lyrics; true worship comes from having the right attitude in your heart. Words can be empty and meaningless unless the right motive of the heart is involved. Music, along with drums, a catchy melody and a repeating rhythm with lyrics are merely a tool; or a vehicle that helps us to get there. Music is merely the means by which we are ushered into acceptable praise and worship.
When God looks at our worship, is He worried that we are worshipping Him with a tempo? When we are praising God, is He looking down saying, “Those worshippers are using drums to worship me with. I do not accept the worship from them.” Is God concerned that we are using a medium to accompany us in our heart-felt worship? If our praise and worship is from the heart with having the right attitude, does it really matter the tempo or “beat” (I really hate that word) in which our songs are kept?
John 4:23, 24 – “But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth (NLT).”
Did you see that? “True worshippers” worship God in “spirit and truth,” not by the “beat” or tempo. In other words, the music, tempo, drums and the “beat” are irrelevant! Why? Because it is the heart (attitude, motive) of the worshipper that God sees; not the style, beat, rhythm, or tempo of the music. Again, the music is only a “vehicle” to help us get there. There are probably thousands of people who attempt to worship God every Sunday morning with pipe organs and pianos that do not have a heart for worship. Does God hear the music or “beat” over the hearts of worship? What God is looking for, is people who worship Him in spirit and truth; the drums along with the music are merely a means by which we are led into praise and worship.
Some people may say, “Since when does something become Christian by merely "Christianizing" the terminology and placing Christ’s name in front of it? How about the Roman cross that was used to kill the worst of criminals in Rome? It was a torture device now it’s a holy icon, seen in practically every church building in the world & hanging around millions of Christian necks as a sign of their faith. It was originally Roman (pagan, heathen) in its history, now it’s Christian.
How about baptism? Why did Jesus use baptism in his day? It’s because the people knew what it was. In some pagan rituals, people would be baptized in bull’s blood as a symbol of eternal life. Others used water as a symbol of purification. In Judaism, it was a familiar practice for new converts. It was pagan and heathen, now it’s Christian.
Since God can use the things of the world to honor Him, such as the Roman method of torture and baptismal pagan bull’s blood practice, why wouldn’t God want Christians to take back what was originally ours to glorify Him with? That is, music; which includes drums, stringed instruments, wonderful words and other various instruments!
Another percussion instrument that God chose the Israelites to use during praise and worship was the tabret. How do I know that the tabret was not just a tambourine and more of a drum-like instrument?
Nahum 2:6-7 “The gates of the rivers shall be opened, and the palace shall be dissolved. And Huzzab shall be led away captive, she shall be brought up, and her maids shall lead her as with the voice of doves, tabering upon their breasts (KJV).”
• Easton's Bible Dictionary says that tabering is like “playing on a small drum or tabret. In Nahum 2:7, where alone it occurs, it means beating on the breast, as players beat on the tabret.”
• In Smith's Bible Dictionary tabering “connects itself with toph, "a timbrel”…the "tabour" or "tabor" was a musical instrument of the drum type which with the pipe formed the band of a country village. To "tabour," accordingly, is to beat with loud strokes, as men beat upon such an instrument.”
• “In Nahum 2:7, where the word "tabering" occurs, it means beating on the breast, as drummers beat on the tabret.” – (Wikipedia, timbrel or tabret)
A “tabret” is a small version of the “Toph” or “Tof.” The term “Tof” implies the word “tophet,” which means to smite, which is how you play the Tof. It is very similar to the medieval tabor drum (or tabour), “which consists of a circular frame of two hoops fitting within one another in which a cloth or animal skin is stretched across to create a small, one-headed or two-sided drum. Since no records, pictures or drawings of tabrets have ever been found, some have come to believe that the tabret is an instrument that is between a tambourine and a modern-day drum.
Originally, the tabor was believed to be a two-sided drum with strings that were strung across one side on a head to create a loud snap. The tabor is believed to be the very first version of the modern-day snare drum. Because of the lack of precise information, in some versions of the Holy Bible, the word tambourine is used in place of tabret and timbrel (Hebrew; Tof), flip-flopped and vice versa.
The tabret was used for:
I. Celebrations
1 Samuel 18:6 – “And it came to pass as they came, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women came out of all cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet king Saul, with tabrets, with joy, and with instruments of musick (KJV).”
II. Prophesying
1 Samuel 10:5 – “After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy: (KJV)”
III. Praise
Psalm 150:4 – “Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs (KJV).”
IV. Worship
Jeremiah 31:4 - Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry (KJV).”
IV. Religious Services
2 Samuel 6:5 – “And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals (KJV).”
1 Chronicles 13:8 - And David and all Israel played before God with all their might, and with singing, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets (KJV).
Psalm 68:25 – “The singers went before, the players on instruments followed after; among them were the damsels playing with timbrels.
Psalm 81:2 – “Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery (KJV).”
Psalm 149:3 – “Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp (KJV).”
All musical instruments that were available to the Israelites, were used to praise the Lord God: The Israelites were not limited to only two instruments, such as in many churches today that consist of a piano and pipe organ alone. If it was acceptable for the Israelites to have huge bands of people playing all kinds of “instruments of musick” during praise and worship, then it’s acceptable for us today’s Christians to do the same. To oppose this idea is legalistic and burdensome. The freedom we have inherited in Christ gives us release from all those rules and regulations of the Old Testament.
2 Chronicles 5:13 – “It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD; (KJV)”
Let’s face it; music really has little to do with praise and worship. As I stated earlier, the musical instruments in a song are merely a means by which we move into our praise and worship. It’s really what comes from the heart that God loves the most. Your motives for praise and worship are worth more to God than having a drummer in the band or a “beat” in the song. Anyone who is worried about having drums in a Christian band or a “beat” to keep the tempo has gotten their priorities in the wrong places. They are more focused upon themselves and the flesh rather than upon the kind worship that pleases God.
Some legalistic and biblically ignorant Christians may say that having drums in a Christian song or Praise and Worship band “feeds” the flesh. The following are a couple of quotes by Christians who have absolutely no clue about using drums in Christian music or what the Scripture say about it:
• “It is the beat which either appeals to the flesh (Rock, Blues) Soul (Classical) or Spirit(Christian).”
• “The lyrics are irrelevant, when the beat is fleshly.”
Just as the word “drum” is not found in the King James Version of the Holy Bible, you will not find the phrase “music feeds the flesh” and you will not find the word “feed, drum, beat or music” associated with the flesh.
The bible says that there are “deeds” of the flesh but there is no mention of anything that “feeds” the flesh. These fleshly deeds are found in Galatians 5:19-23):
• Immorality
• Impurity
• Sensuality
• Idolatry
• Sorcery
• Enmities
• Strife
• Jealousy
• Outbursts of anger
• Disputes
• Dissensions
• Factions
• Envying
• Drunkenness
• Carousing
I have heard that some Christians have even gone as far as to say that Christian music that includes drums, appeal to the flesh. In other words, it is “fleshly.” What does God’s Word have to say about what is “fleshly?”
• 2 Corinthians 1:12 - For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward (KJV).”
• Colossians 2:18 – “Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind (KJV).”
• 1 Peter 2:11 – “Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul (KJV).”
• Ezekiel 16:26 - You also committed harlotry with the Egyptians, your very fleshly neighbors, and increased your acts of harlotry to provoke Me to anger (NKJV).
• Hebrews 7:16 - “…who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life (NKJV).”
• Hebrews 9:10 – “…concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation (NKJV).”
Summery:
1. fleshly wisdom
2. fleshly mind
3. fleshly lusts
4. fleshly neighbors
5. fleshly commandment
6. fleshly ordinances
There we have it; I didn’t see any mention of music, tempo, the “beat” or Rock music as being “fleshly.” As a matter of fact, there are no examples of music or drums “feeding” the flesh either.
As mentioned previously, I really don’t care where the supposed origin of drums came from; I am not using drums for that purpose. Just as God used a Roman cross to save us from our sins, Christian Contemporary Rock bands use drums to write music that glorifies God and it helps us to move into a heart of praise and worship.
Anyone who claims that Christian Rock music is “fleshly” because it includes drums or that Christian Rock music appeals to the flesh, it only expressing their useless opinion! To do do this...is fleshly! Sheesh, what a frigg'n hypocrite. What really happens is that the music moves and carries us into a spirit or attitude of praise and worship. Thus, when this happens we are actually walking and living in the spirit and worshipping God in spirit (attitude) and truth (knowing Christ). Music being fleshly is not found in the Holy Scriptures and making the claim that Christian Rock music that includes drums is fleshly, is unbiblical and a lie. It is man’s opinions alone, nothing more. Do not fear man, but fear God.
Nowadays, some Christians who are ignorant of music theory, biblical music history and what true worship is, would make the claim that Christian music should emphasize the melody, not the “beat.”
Does Christian music emphasize the melody if drums are involved? When you hear a Christian Contemporary/Rock song on the radio, do you remember what the drums did or what the melody is?
For example, when you hear the song “Jesus Saves” by Jeremy Camp, do you hear or remember “boom, pop,(rest) boom, pop, crash, (rest) boom, pop, (rest) boom, pop, crash?” Or, do you remember the chorus, “Sing it out, to let all the world know that Jesus saves. Raise a shout, to let all the world know, that Jesus saves?”
Do you know why you remember the chorus more than the drum beat or the words to the verses? First of all, most people aren’t professional drummers and second, it’s because the chorus is the melody! The melody is the focus in the song and that’s why the chorus is usually played louder than the verses, thus emphasizing the melody and not the “beat.” The drum beat is simply a rhythm that carries the song and keeps the tempo to get us to the melody. The melody is the focus; the “beat” is actually a “back-beat” that keeps the song moving in a forward direction, that always leads us back to the chorus.
One simple guideline for Christian music is that it’s okay to have drums.
Sunday, January 30, 2011
The Heed
Here, I exist. I am just a faint whisper flowing in the wind, a mist of haze. Does anyone hear me?
I am screaming at the top of my lungs. I only survive here. I’m a single voice in a crowded room.
I am one among millions.
I shout into the blizzard. No one hears my cries. Frozen tears fall from my eyes. I am a minnow in a sea of giants. I am here! Why can’t you hear me?
I am a single raindrop in a thunderstorm. I plunge from the sky alone. Destined to join the rest in due time. For now, I will fall and I will speak.
Is this all there is to this so-called life? No. I am only one among millions.
Here me now.
I am screaming at the top of my lungs. I only survive here. I’m a single voice in a crowded room.
I am one among millions.
I shout into the blizzard. No one hears my cries. Frozen tears fall from my eyes. I am a minnow in a sea of giants. I am here! Why can’t you hear me?
I am a single raindrop in a thunderstorm. I plunge from the sky alone. Destined to join the rest in due time. For now, I will fall and I will speak.
Is this all there is to this so-called life? No. I am only one among millions.
Here me now.
Saturday, January 29, 2011
What Makes Music Christian?
edwardpf123
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5VgHeYWv2M
This was very first comment on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5VgHeYWv2M
“What makes music Christian? Is it the genre? Is it the sound, style, beat or tempo? If I played Handel's Messiah without the choir singing, you would never know it was Christian. If I played Shine by the Newsboys without the lyrics or vocals, you would never know it was Christian. If I played "Baby Got Back" & "Baby Got Bible" back to back without the vocals, how would you know the difference? Is it the beat, the tempo, style or genre? NO, it's the lyrics & words alone. Prejudice is a sin!”
@MartyJSwizzle -No, the type of music is very clear by the beat. It is the beat which either appeals to the flesh (Rock, Blues) Soul (Classical) or Spirit(Christian). - edwardpf123
@MartyJSwizzle -you wouldn't know Handel's Messiah just by the music-who are you kidding! You would know Handel's music was different then Rock and Roll, and it would have a different effect on you. Anyone with any sense can tell different kinds of music without lyrics. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - What I meant was that without knowing the title of Handel’s Messiah & without the choir, you wouldn’t be able to tell a difference between other Classical composers arrangements such as Bach, Beethoven and Tchaikovsky. It would just sound like another Classical musical arrangement just like all the others. - MartyJSwizzle
@edwardpf123 - I didn’t say that you couldn’t tell the difference between Handel’s Messiah & Rock ‘n Roll, you did. Now, you are putting words in my mouth. If Handel’s Messiah was made into a Rock version, it wouldn’t be so boring anymore! I never said or insinuated that people couldn’t tell the difference between different types of music. - MartyJSwizzle
@edwardpf123 - Where does it say in Scripture that the beat of music determines whether or not it appeals to the flesh, the soul and the Spirit? - MartyJSwizzle
@edwardpf123 - Well, we finally have it admitted. It’s not about the lyrics then. Great, now tell me what makes music “fleshly?” It’s the beat? Prove it.
I’m not talking about your opinion or the opinion of some ill-informed scientist or psychologist. I’m talking about biblically. Where does it specifically say in Scripture that music is fleshly? Answer it, don’t ignore it. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1John 2:19 - BereanBeacon1
@BereanBeacon1 - Being a Berean, I would expect you to obey context. Evidently, you do not believe in context and you should be ashamed. In 1 John 2:19, the prophet is NOT talking about saved believers leaving the church but people who are antichrists and fakes. Christians who choose to listen to ROCK have not left the church but only have taken the piano & organ to a new level of worship. David’s temple had thousand of musicians and you are complaining about a few loud drums & guitars? Ps 150:5. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -David musicians would never had played the Godless music played by 'Christian' rock groups. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - What makes Christian metal/rock groups “Godless?” Is it the music or the words in the song? It’s certainly not the words so it must be the music. Therefore, where in Scripture does it specifically state that the tempo or beat of music makes it “fleshly?” I think you just made this up. Sounds like a man-made idea to me. - MartyJSwizzle
@john146only - Yes, you couldn't do much with it. Obviously, that music was not meant for you. However, there is an audience for that kind of music; they are the youth of today. What they need is relevance. In other words, as Christians we need to be able to connect with them where they are. That is, creating music they will like & listen too. Today's Christians bands have a message: Jesus is Lord!
Please search the band "For Today - Agape + lyrics" and watch. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -No, their message is that Christians don't want to be different then the world.
The lyrics are irrelevant, when the beat is fleshly. The youth need to hear the truth of God's words, not be deceived that Christianity can't be distinquished from the world. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - They are different from the world because of their message, genius. So, the gospel is irrelevant when sang over the top of a quick tempo? Kids are hearing the truth of God’s words. The lyrics are virtually sermons, quoting from Scripture & the kids know the words. If you have ever heard, listened to or read the lyrics from the bands that play Christian metal/rock then you wouldn’t state such ridiculous statements. Therefore, you speak out of ignorance. – MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -Hey, you clearly haven't watched the video-the lyrics aren't the issue! The MUSIC is.
You can put 'Amazing Grace' to a Rock music beat and it DESTROYS it. - edwardpf123
@MartyJSwizzle -Actually, the 'message' has very little to do with it. In Acts Paul refused to have the gospel proclaimed by a demonic possesed young woman (Acts 16:18). God isn't going to use the ways of the world to put forth His gospel. - edwardpf123
@MartyJSwizzleMany - churches use rock`n roll and artistry just for amusement, puzzlement of the young generation to capture their interests to go to a church. No cross standing at the entrance, just inviting a paganism into a kind of ecstatic moment!
This misleading concept destroys many, and bethinking themselves being a "Christian", but only to the name, never been born again! - missionoc
@missionoc - So, the misleading concept is having a church playing Rock ‘n Roll style praise & worship but there’s no cross at the entrance of the church? Did the first century Christians have a cross at the entrance of their church? Did they even have a church building?
You are reaching for straws for any excuse to downplay Rock music. If you don’t like it; don’t listen to it. Stop condemning others who do. My salvation does not depend on the style or beat of music I choose to worship with! - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -And who is justifying the cross at the entrance of the church? But that is certainly not a compromise with the world as is adopting their music and pretending that adding different lyrics makes it Christian. And no one claimed that your salvation depended on the music you listen to, it is reflection of your spiritual maturity. And your childish reaction is typical of the milk fed Christians today, who cannot put up with sound doctrine, but want their ears tickled. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - Listening to a certain style of music has absolutely nothing to do with my “spiritual maturity.” It has everything to do with musical tastes and preferences. What is a reflection of my spiritual maturity is, knowing that the style of music is irrelevant to the message in the music. So, I have a “childish” reaction? Why do you judge me? You don’t even know me. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -Actually it does. Musical tastes are a reflection of ones understanding of scripture. We are to reject the old and love the music God loves, that glorifies Him in all aspects, not pretend that you can keep a demonic beat and put some 'christian lyrics' in and make it acceptable. And I am tired of Christians who won't grow up and embarrass Christ with their determination to stay part of the world. - edwardpf123
@MartyJSwizzle -Is that suppose to be an intelligent question? It is a fact that different beats produce different effects on the body. That is why you have different music for different scenes in movies. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - Music does have an effect on your mind, memory and mood. Therefore, I prefer to worship my Lord with beating drums, fast tempos, screaming vocals and loud guitars.
John 4:23 “But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way.” Hmm…I didn’t piano’s & organs in there anywhere. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -Christian music isn't the music of the world. Because you put a few lyrics in that you think are Christian doesn't make it so. It must be pure in all of it's components, rhythm, melody and lyrics, not just one. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - Works of the Flesh - Gal 5:19-21 “When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these.” I didn’t see Rock music in there. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -How do you explain your denial of reality? The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, PEACE-see any peace in Rock and Roll, in loud guitars, fast tempos and crazy beat? The Bible is made to be played with by attempting to find loopholes. That is the typical attitude of the Laodican Christian, 'where in the Bible does it specifically say....' - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - I never suggested that anyone find loopholes in the bible. Laodicean Christians are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold. They are rich, in need of nothing, comfortable & spiritually numb.
“Where in the Bible does it specifically say,” is the attitude of a BEREAN. Acts 17:11 “These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.” - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -Yes, that is the typical justification of the 'seeker churches' to become like the world. Paul never compromised doctrinal principles and ACTED like the world. He preached SEPARATION from the world (2Cor.6:17). - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - Paul never ACTED like the world? What do you think he was doing to support himself during his travels? Paul was a tentmaker, Mattie is a musician. What’s the difference? They both work, they both preach, they both are creative, they are both in the world, they are both in the world but they didn’t ACT like the world in the sense of continual sinning & rejection of God. - MartyJSwizzle
@edwardpf123 - We all act like the world. Can you pick out a Christian in a crowd of people? No, the only way we can tell the difference is through relationships. You don’t judge by outer appearances or by their occupation or skills. That’s what the carnal man does, the spiritual man discerns through relationship, behavior & prompting of the Holy Spirit.
What doctrinal principles are there to support your belief that Rock music is “fleshly” or “worldly?” Come on; Book, chapter & verse. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -Yes, the Bereans were searching the scriptures to see what Paul was saying was true. They weren't asking him 'show me specifically where it states I can't do such and such'
Clearly, you have a hard time reading your Bible, the Laodicean's SAY 'I am rich, but in fact are wretched, and miserable and POOR, BLIND and naked'
Where does it say in the Bible that prejudice is a sin? - edwardpf123
@MartyJSwizzle -What you mean is that you have gotten comfortable with compromise, that is what is now taken today for one's 'faith growing'
God is not glorified by the things that the world glories in. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - No, I have learned that grace, mercy and truth are above being religious, arrogance & piety by valuing man’s opinions & traditions. 1 Peter 4:11 – “If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in ALL things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.” - MartyJSwizzle
@edwardpf123 - I have no problem living in reality. Again, you judge me as if I am delusional. Let’s stick to the facts & not get off into judging people, ok?
The “peace” that Paul is writing about in Gal 5 has nothing to do with music, the beat or even praise & worship. The “peace” Paul is talking about is the kind of peace that comes from the Holy Spirit that lives within us, that causes us to get along with others & to have an attitude of harmony among believers (Romans14:14-19). - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -LOL! All of you thin-skinned guys start whining about being 'insulted'. If you are accepting rock music as being Christian, you aren't living in reality, you are rejecting it. The 'peace' that Paul is writing about is produced by the Holy Spirit, it is contentment, and it fits in with Christian music (Col.3:16), not with Rock which produces the same emotions that the 'secular' Rock does, frenzy, lust, anger, etc. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - Wow, ok. Well, I think or conversation is over here. I think the personal judgments, mocking & cynicism have gone a little too far. Let me leave you with one final thought.
"It is impossible to judge anther person's motives. One cannot determine the heart in a person in a first-time encounter. Let the Scriptures, not your heritage, be your standard. Let love be your law and let mercy be your message." - MartyJSwizzle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5VgHeYWv2M
This was very first comment on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5VgHeYWv2M
“What makes music Christian? Is it the genre? Is it the sound, style, beat or tempo? If I played Handel's Messiah without the choir singing, you would never know it was Christian. If I played Shine by the Newsboys without the lyrics or vocals, you would never know it was Christian. If I played "Baby Got Back" & "Baby Got Bible" back to back without the vocals, how would you know the difference? Is it the beat, the tempo, style or genre? NO, it's the lyrics & words alone. Prejudice is a sin!”
@MartyJSwizzle -No, the type of music is very clear by the beat. It is the beat which either appeals to the flesh (Rock, Blues) Soul (Classical) or Spirit(Christian). - edwardpf123
@MartyJSwizzle -you wouldn't know Handel's Messiah just by the music-who are you kidding! You would know Handel's music was different then Rock and Roll, and it would have a different effect on you. Anyone with any sense can tell different kinds of music without lyrics. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - What I meant was that without knowing the title of Handel’s Messiah & without the choir, you wouldn’t be able to tell a difference between other Classical composers arrangements such as Bach, Beethoven and Tchaikovsky. It would just sound like another Classical musical arrangement just like all the others. - MartyJSwizzle
@edwardpf123 - I didn’t say that you couldn’t tell the difference between Handel’s Messiah & Rock ‘n Roll, you did. Now, you are putting words in my mouth. If Handel’s Messiah was made into a Rock version, it wouldn’t be so boring anymore! I never said or insinuated that people couldn’t tell the difference between different types of music. - MartyJSwizzle
@edwardpf123 - Where does it say in Scripture that the beat of music determines whether or not it appeals to the flesh, the soul and the Spirit? - MartyJSwizzle
@edwardpf123 - Well, we finally have it admitted. It’s not about the lyrics then. Great, now tell me what makes music “fleshly?” It’s the beat? Prove it.
I’m not talking about your opinion or the opinion of some ill-informed scientist or psychologist. I’m talking about biblically. Where does it specifically say in Scripture that music is fleshly? Answer it, don’t ignore it. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1John 2:19 - BereanBeacon1
@BereanBeacon1 - Being a Berean, I would expect you to obey context. Evidently, you do not believe in context and you should be ashamed. In 1 John 2:19, the prophet is NOT talking about saved believers leaving the church but people who are antichrists and fakes. Christians who choose to listen to ROCK have not left the church but only have taken the piano & organ to a new level of worship. David’s temple had thousand of musicians and you are complaining about a few loud drums & guitars? Ps 150:5. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -David musicians would never had played the Godless music played by 'Christian' rock groups. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - What makes Christian metal/rock groups “Godless?” Is it the music or the words in the song? It’s certainly not the words so it must be the music. Therefore, where in Scripture does it specifically state that the tempo or beat of music makes it “fleshly?” I think you just made this up. Sounds like a man-made idea to me. - MartyJSwizzle
@john146only - Yes, you couldn't do much with it. Obviously, that music was not meant for you. However, there is an audience for that kind of music; they are the youth of today. What they need is relevance. In other words, as Christians we need to be able to connect with them where they are. That is, creating music they will like & listen too. Today's Christians bands have a message: Jesus is Lord!
Please search the band "For Today - Agape + lyrics" and watch. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -No, their message is that Christians don't want to be different then the world.
The lyrics are irrelevant, when the beat is fleshly. The youth need to hear the truth of God's words, not be deceived that Christianity can't be distinquished from the world. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - They are different from the world because of their message, genius. So, the gospel is irrelevant when sang over the top of a quick tempo? Kids are hearing the truth of God’s words. The lyrics are virtually sermons, quoting from Scripture & the kids know the words. If you have ever heard, listened to or read the lyrics from the bands that play Christian metal/rock then you wouldn’t state such ridiculous statements. Therefore, you speak out of ignorance. – MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -Hey, you clearly haven't watched the video-the lyrics aren't the issue! The MUSIC is.
You can put 'Amazing Grace' to a Rock music beat and it DESTROYS it. - edwardpf123
@MartyJSwizzle -Actually, the 'message' has very little to do with it. In Acts Paul refused to have the gospel proclaimed by a demonic possesed young woman (Acts 16:18). God isn't going to use the ways of the world to put forth His gospel. - edwardpf123
@MartyJSwizzleMany - churches use rock`n roll and artistry just for amusement, puzzlement of the young generation to capture their interests to go to a church. No cross standing at the entrance, just inviting a paganism into a kind of ecstatic moment!
This misleading concept destroys many, and bethinking themselves being a "Christian", but only to the name, never been born again! - missionoc
@missionoc - So, the misleading concept is having a church playing Rock ‘n Roll style praise & worship but there’s no cross at the entrance of the church? Did the first century Christians have a cross at the entrance of their church? Did they even have a church building?
You are reaching for straws for any excuse to downplay Rock music. If you don’t like it; don’t listen to it. Stop condemning others who do. My salvation does not depend on the style or beat of music I choose to worship with! - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -And who is justifying the cross at the entrance of the church? But that is certainly not a compromise with the world as is adopting their music and pretending that adding different lyrics makes it Christian. And no one claimed that your salvation depended on the music you listen to, it is reflection of your spiritual maturity. And your childish reaction is typical of the milk fed Christians today, who cannot put up with sound doctrine, but want their ears tickled. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - Listening to a certain style of music has absolutely nothing to do with my “spiritual maturity.” It has everything to do with musical tastes and preferences. What is a reflection of my spiritual maturity is, knowing that the style of music is irrelevant to the message in the music. So, I have a “childish” reaction? Why do you judge me? You don’t even know me. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -Actually it does. Musical tastes are a reflection of ones understanding of scripture. We are to reject the old and love the music God loves, that glorifies Him in all aspects, not pretend that you can keep a demonic beat and put some 'christian lyrics' in and make it acceptable. And I am tired of Christians who won't grow up and embarrass Christ with their determination to stay part of the world. - edwardpf123
@MartyJSwizzle -Is that suppose to be an intelligent question? It is a fact that different beats produce different effects on the body. That is why you have different music for different scenes in movies. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - Music does have an effect on your mind, memory and mood. Therefore, I prefer to worship my Lord with beating drums, fast tempos, screaming vocals and loud guitars.
John 4:23 “But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way.” Hmm…I didn’t piano’s & organs in there anywhere. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -Christian music isn't the music of the world. Because you put a few lyrics in that you think are Christian doesn't make it so. It must be pure in all of it's components, rhythm, melody and lyrics, not just one. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - Works of the Flesh - Gal 5:19-21 “When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these.” I didn’t see Rock music in there. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -How do you explain your denial of reality? The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, PEACE-see any peace in Rock and Roll, in loud guitars, fast tempos and crazy beat? The Bible is made to be played with by attempting to find loopholes. That is the typical attitude of the Laodican Christian, 'where in the Bible does it specifically say....' - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - I never suggested that anyone find loopholes in the bible. Laodicean Christians are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold. They are rich, in need of nothing, comfortable & spiritually numb.
“Where in the Bible does it specifically say,” is the attitude of a BEREAN. Acts 17:11 “These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.” - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -Yes, that is the typical justification of the 'seeker churches' to become like the world. Paul never compromised doctrinal principles and ACTED like the world. He preached SEPARATION from the world (2Cor.6:17). - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - Paul never ACTED like the world? What do you think he was doing to support himself during his travels? Paul was a tentmaker, Mattie is a musician. What’s the difference? They both work, they both preach, they both are creative, they are both in the world, they are both in the world but they didn’t ACT like the world in the sense of continual sinning & rejection of God. - MartyJSwizzle
@edwardpf123 - We all act like the world. Can you pick out a Christian in a crowd of people? No, the only way we can tell the difference is through relationships. You don’t judge by outer appearances or by their occupation or skills. That’s what the carnal man does, the spiritual man discerns through relationship, behavior & prompting of the Holy Spirit.
What doctrinal principles are there to support your belief that Rock music is “fleshly” or “worldly?” Come on; Book, chapter & verse. - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -Yes, the Bereans were searching the scriptures to see what Paul was saying was true. They weren't asking him 'show me specifically where it states I can't do such and such'
Clearly, you have a hard time reading your Bible, the Laodicean's SAY 'I am rich, but in fact are wretched, and miserable and POOR, BLIND and naked'
Where does it say in the Bible that prejudice is a sin? - edwardpf123
@MartyJSwizzle -What you mean is that you have gotten comfortable with compromise, that is what is now taken today for one's 'faith growing'
God is not glorified by the things that the world glories in. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - No, I have learned that grace, mercy and truth are above being religious, arrogance & piety by valuing man’s opinions & traditions. 1 Peter 4:11 – “If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in ALL things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.” - MartyJSwizzle
@edwardpf123 - I have no problem living in reality. Again, you judge me as if I am delusional. Let’s stick to the facts & not get off into judging people, ok?
The “peace” that Paul is writing about in Gal 5 has nothing to do with music, the beat or even praise & worship. The “peace” Paul is talking about is the kind of peace that comes from the Holy Spirit that lives within us, that causes us to get along with others & to have an attitude of harmony among believers (Romans14:14-19). - MartyJSwizzle
@MartyJSwizzle -LOL! All of you thin-skinned guys start whining about being 'insulted'. If you are accepting rock music as being Christian, you aren't living in reality, you are rejecting it. The 'peace' that Paul is writing about is produced by the Holy Spirit, it is contentment, and it fits in with Christian music (Col.3:16), not with Rock which produces the same emotions that the 'secular' Rock does, frenzy, lust, anger, etc. - edwardpf123
@edwardpf123 - Wow, ok. Well, I think or conversation is over here. I think the personal judgments, mocking & cynicism have gone a little too far. Let me leave you with one final thought.
"It is impossible to judge anther person's motives. One cannot determine the heart in a person in a first-time encounter. Let the Scriptures, not your heritage, be your standard. Let love be your law and let mercy be your message." - MartyJSwizzle
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